The Chattering Classes

[Ron Troversial Clay]

And I got 6 of them plus 2 A levels in the 50s.

And they are called Driver's Licences Peter. Well that's what they call them in SA.

To be fair on Barrie, he is a bit of a Luddite and does not possess a computer nor does he know how to use one, which is a pity. And he still does all his correspondance in long hand with a fountain pen.

However Barrie knows the inside and out of angling politics better than anyone I know. Whatever he writes is always worth reading and this last piece of his has a great deal of worth make no mistake.

 

[Stuart Wilson]

Yes, but you brought out some points he made in his article and just slagged him off. If you are an academic you'll understand the need for structured debate so at least put you own views forward so we can weight those into the argument as well.

Or don't you do that sort of thing? Stand and be counted.

...'Fraid it's all startnig to sound a bit 'chattering classes' to me!

 

[AL.]

The problem as i see it is not the " chattering classes" whoever they may be but the power of celebrity. Famous peoples opinions stick in the minds of their fans and influence them accordingly. As an example look at Barrie rickards' essay piece that we are all now discussing. Long after we have stopped talking about it , it will be his opinions that have been recorded and remembered because he is the " celebrity " columnist" and as such this lends weight and importance to what he says. As a nation that worships at the altar of celebrity do not underestimate its power.

 

[Wolfman Woody]

There are those who do just want to heckle, barrack and cat-call from the back rows. Strangely, I have found the Tory party to be full of them where I am.

Having been on the inside of a political party (now defunct - no guesses) I know where these "chattering classes" start. As I said, it's mostly in the little parties and get-togethers for wine a cheese and a few petit-fours. We had one guy who would nobble you at these does, come out with a statement (quite unfounded) quickly followed by "..you do know that, don't you?" So his gospel would spread and I know it's the same in all the other Parties.

 

[jason fisher]

are you going to substantiate any of your comments stuart or just spend your time sniping at other people.
people who have for a considerable time put their own view point forward and found that many people do actually agree with it.

some one once said and i quote "they say a little education can take you a long way, maybe you should start now."

 

[Ron Troversial Clay]

Which Party was that Cheeky - The Monster Raving Loony Party?..... )

 

[Wolfman Woody]

No Ron, they're still going, stronger than ever (only because the others are now catching up).

But look what I found on your Tory Party Website. For now it's only a proposal, but it's politicians meddling in the affairs and policies of outdoor sports -

Make the use of barbless hooks compulsory.

The use of barbless hooks is argued by many to be essential to the health of fishing stock. They reduce handling time and minimise damage to the fish which increases its chances of survival when it is released. Barbed hooks, by contrast, contradict the principle of catch and release because the fish themselves are often so badly damaged that their survival chances are low. This has an impact on fish numbers

____________________________________________________


Badly informed? Whether you agree with it or not they've now dipped their toe into the "meddling" game and no doubt this will be one of the topics at the "Chattering Classes" tea parties.

 

[Graham Whatmore]

You're right of course Jeff, MP's habitually waffle on about subjects they have absolutely no knowledge of, till in the finish they convince themselves they are right. That is until the party policy changes of course.

They get interviewed either on radio or TV and their outrageously incorrect facts become accepted as a truth by the masses who also have no knowledge of the subject. They go to cocktail parties and unload their incorrect facts on anyone who is not quick enough to get out of their way, and they too accept his facts, this then is passed on at other cocktail parties and finds its way into magazines and newspapers as fact.

You can just see them can't you, "ere Ethel, did you hear about these fishermen using barbed hooks and ripping the poor fishes lips off, glad none of my family ever went fishing, bl...y cruel lot fishermen are, fishing ought to be banned if you ask me, same as foxhunting".

Thursday is whinge day for me by the way! (everyday is, when it comes to MP's though, useless lot)

 

[MaNick]

bloody ELL!..

I did "O" levels!... am i an akademik too?

gosh, we akademiks can be a bit nasty sumtimes, carnt we!

 

[Wolfman Woody]

Spot on Graham, and once on a Jimmy Young radio show he was interviewing someone (can't remember who) and made the comment "..and what about fishermen ripping the heads of fish with massive hooks....?

I wrote in to complain about his remark, hoping to get a retraction or apology - NOTHING. The seeds of thought had by then been sewn.

Another age-old saying applies "Bulls**t baffles brains." and it sure does!

 

[John Jones]

Some time ago I picked up a fare in my cab and he told me he owned the holiday boatyard at Wooton Wawen on the Birmingham/Stratford canal. Then the subject got round to fishing and I said it was nigh on impossible to fish the canals during the Summer cos of the boat traffic. The conversation got a bit heated and he said he thought fishing should be banned anyway cos the canals were built for boats not fishing. Fair point some might think. I then pointed out that had it not been for massive pressure from the Birmingham Anglers Association with some support from the Ramblers Association, there would be no Birmingham/Stratford canal as the old BWB proposed to fill it in after commercial use declined. No Bham Stratford canal, no boatyard at Wooton Wawen! Game, set and match to the anglers, I think!

 

[EsoxBlades]

The situation appears to have developed where politics and 'politik' form the basis of our identification of 'threats'. Now lets just consider 'threats' to our sport for a moment and we will soon realise that there are many; they range from the effects of pollution on Britain's fish stocks, outbreaks of water borne diseases, the pressure we exert ourselves on particular waters, natural events such as flash floods, poor unsporting behaviour (we do not control nor represent every single fisherman), apathy and in some cases an arrogance of our belief as the 'fishing establishment'. And? My point is the chattering classes are a 'threat', but not necessarily the biggest single threat. I would suggest that the biggest single threat is that of divide and rule - it is an old game, but one that leads the aggressor (policy of any government)to play conflicting groups off against one another (note the latter points about apathy and aggornace). I do smile when I read of challenges to Professor Rickards professional competence and opinion, the 'cat is amongst the pigeons' and we should all take a good look at ourselves from the outside in. Most of the 'debate'that has preceded this response, revolves around challenging credentials, usurping professional competence, getting bogged down in the weeds of minutae that I thought only bureacrats engaged in. Shame on us all the biggest threat to angling - the chattering classes indeed!

I love fishing, it is the most fantastic release from everyday monotony, it involves skill, knowledge, care, thought, tactics, is interactive with the environment, can be solitary or be shared with companions, family and friends. For those inclined it is a source of employment, a professional sport indeed and for others a past-time, a hobby a way of getting away from 'it' all. What it is not is a platfoem for political debate, and we should stop making it so easy for it to be so. We have a habit in Britain of believing that if it is written down it must be true, well I'm serving in Iraq because of that. So sleep easy in your beds tonight my piscatorial admirers, get up early tomorrow and go fishing on one of our beautiful rivers. Leave your politics behind, and stop creating battlefields for the enemy to form in. Having been out here, I could think of nothing more enchanting than to spend some time with esox on my return - a passion for angling we have and that is our strength.
KR's
Major Conrad Giles
BASRAH
SE IRAQ

 

[Ron Troversial Clay]

Have you had a try for those huge "Barbus" in the Tigris or Euphrates yet Conrad.

Wouldn't it be marvellous if Iraq was a peaceful country and we could all have a try for them.

 

[GrahamM]

REPLY FROM BARRIE RICKARDS:

"I may well deserve the abuse Stuart Wilson heaps on me after my article on the Chattering Classes, but I am hardly in a position to say, being slightly prejudiced. That is not very important, what I felt was important was that a particular danger to angling was drawn to the attention of anglers, because it rarely is, so concerned are we with the named anti-angling groups.

As I get older, whilst I find myself more tolerant of the individual, I am distinctly less tolerant of organisations or groups which say and write daft things about angling. So it seems to me that with over 50 years angling experience, and still fishing plenty, and still involved with clubs, associations, committees and quangos I ought to speak out.

It?s not important if this upsets Stuart Wilson: what matters is that things suggested are discussed and debated. In this particular matter I do hope Stuart is right, because although his letter was hardly constructive, it does carry the implication that I am wrong about the Chattering Class and I would love that to be so.

It is true that people of the Bloomsbury Set ilk would, today, be on the extreme end of the Chattering Class: but what I personally have found so nauseating about their writing is their intense and active snobbery with respect to the Working Class, almost, at times, treating them as the Untouchables are treated. The last of the Bloomsbury Set died only in 2003, so I have read. I met three of them many years ago and believe me, it was very easy to see up their nostrils. Finally to Stuart (I do hope I have spelt your first name correctly) it?s simply not a question of whether I am pleased or not with my article, but whether or not I get people thinking about it.

The point raised by AL re celebrities is certainly a factor and one the SAA and others is addressing. Many celebrities speak well of angling, e.g. Chris Tarrant, and it would probably be helpful if more did so.

Cheeky Monkey?s point about barbless hooks and the Conservative Party website is being chased by SAA and others, and rightly so.

I tried to avoid being too political in Chattering Classes because, frankly, I don?t know who is the best bet for angling. It might help if they all went away, so far as angling is concerned."

Barrie Rickards

 

[Graham Whatmore]

Conrad,

I see your points but I don't necessarily agree with all of them or even the thrust of your argument.

The reason it becomes a political thread is because politicians decide, and make laws, for us to abide and live by. If these laws are based on misinformation then we, as anglers, have only ourselves to blame for not putting them wise to the true facts before the laws are made.

Lets face it, politicians are not the brightest stars in the sky, not by a long chalk, and they are very prone to pressure by small groups such as anti hunting, anti shooting and anti angling. If we anglers don't stand up and make a noise then they will think we are a soft touch, so why not ban angling, especially seeing as theres no voiced objections, and least it will gain us a few votes.

Buying a licence to fish also entitles us to an opinion on the way our sport is run and if we don't stand up and be counted then it is us thats at fault, not the government.

 

[The Monk]

well said Barrie and Graham

On angling politics

you go fishing,

you are politically involved,

take some responsibility


period!

 

[EsoxBlades]

So Graham - what points did you agree/not agree with? And which particular 'argument' were you referring to? I might be able to identify the thrust that was missing.

I have some experience of Government and policy making, having been the senior risk advisor to DEFRA's risks strategy team for 4 years amongst other things - I had not previously had need to mention this but it may provide context to my discussion; am quite aware of the political beast, but thank you for reminding us all of entitlements we have as tax payers/citizens. I absolutely agree that ANY political party is prone to pressure from minority 'anti' groups, and yes we should absolutely stand up for up ourselves. The point of my discussion, as opposed to argument, was that we should not be apathetic, neither should we be arrogant in thinking we know better than our own sport fellows; too much smart chatback rather than solid support. The underlying reason for this is that 'divide and rule' is the greatest threat to us; having watched the CA try with great struggle to coordinate sports such as ours and others that involve interaction with wildlife it became quite apparent we were pretty good at fighting ourselves rather than government policy or indeed the 'chattering classes' and especially the 'antis'. The government have not created a battlefield for any policy on angling, so why we continue to ask for one is questionable, if not foolhardy. Do we really want to force an angling charter or other such bureaucratic nonsense on oursleves? I hope not. Besides, who is asking for it? Let them come with their white papers, before we rally around preparing for a battle we do not know the context of. Above all else enjoy and promote our fishing.

On another note to 'Ron Troversial' , I fished Basrah Palace pools once and caught a carp and nine fish similar to a perch, but more disc like in shape. It was a most relaxing couple of hours, but I feel it will be a long time before the angling world gets to safely enjoy mesopotamia; the delights of the tigris and euphrates. Might get another session in if I am down that way again before my return to UK just in time for the coldest part of Pike fishing season. Enjoy the start of it!

Pikelines!

All for now, I only get on this periodically.

 

[Graham Whatmore]

White papers are usually a prelude to debate with the object of making a change to either policy or law. If the basis of their thinking comes as a result of pressure from the anti's then fishing could be at risk. Its far better that we have our say before the debate and not after, surely, keeping quiet isn't an option in my book. Shout about the benefits of angling from the highest roof and do it as often and as loudly as possible until eventually people like MP's sit up and take notice, maybe then we can make angling safe for future generations.




Gets off soapbox and exits stage right!

 

[Wolfman Woody]

Fine points well made, Conrad. And before going any further I would like to wish yourself and all the lads out there safely home as soon as possible.

Back in 1995 the Labour Party published their 'Charter for Angling' having been slated for many years as being anti-angling. It was developed by my old MP and friend Tom Pendry, now Lord Pendry. Since then all parties have been looking for a way-in to attract voters from our community, but in most cases it leads to mistrust.

I agree with the sentiments above that it would be far better if all political parties butted out and left angling to resolve it's own problems, which seems increasingly difficult as organisations fall out with one another. Yes, we have our own battlegrounds and what a shame. Why can't we allow each other an opinion without slagging them off? Surely it's our right to hold an opinion and others to ensure that it is well informed.

I hope Barrie is wrong, but I fear that the writing is on the wall. There will be more and more meddling.

 

[EsoxBlades]

Thank you for the wishes Jeff, I'm doing the level best for a safe return (needs to come quicker!!) - and to all this has been an intereting discussion at the least.

Pikleines 'til the next cat arrives amongst the pigeons!'