Ban on Hunting imminent?

Baz

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Fox hunting is a tradition, and to see the hunt gather in their bright red tunics with a pack of hounds, is something which I like to see.
The hunters could keep their hounds and instead of hunting foxes a trail of anniseed or something could be laid by someone on a scrambler bike. They would still get their cross country gallop.
 

Baz

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Ron,
If it wasn't for the fish farmers, there would be a lot less course fish about, through cormorant pradation alone, to say nothing of polution.
It's much the same as pheasant shooting, if they were not bred there would hardly be any pheasents about, to say nothing of the money that comes off these shoots that gets ploughed back into conservation, which in turn encourages more manageable woodland and re-introduced wildlife.
 
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Ron Troversial Clay

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Personally I have no involvement or interest in fox hunting at all. However I have done lots of shooting in my life, and if I could afford it, would do more.

However I have sat and listened to the point of view of fox hunters on many occasions. The perception that fox hunters are upper crust landed gentry is quite wrong. Many ordinary people in South Yorkshire who can afford to keep a horse often get involved in hunting when the season starts.

You do need to listen carefully to these people's point of view. It's easy to condemn something without knowing much about it.
 

Baz

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Fox hunting on horseback dosen't control foxes though. Which is the age old argument that these people have given.
 

John Jones

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Ron.

Of course angling is a form of hunting, no one in their right mind could say otherwise. But, at least as far as course fishing is concerned, the object is very different to hunting with dogs or guns.

As to the definition af a blood sport, surely the true blood sport is one that intentionally sets out with its primary objective being to kill a wild creature for pleasure.

You cannot say simply that because a sport involves animals and sometimes blood, it is a blood sport. Take horse racing for instance. Almost every day horses are injured and some sadly have to be put down, but no one even remotely associates this with being a blood sport. ( I know there have been moves to ban the Grand National). Admittedly there is a distinction in that horse racing does not involve hunting, but nevertheless it involves animals and sometimes blood.

Even game fishing, where as you say it is compulsory on some waters to kill your catch, and blood is involved, is distinct in that the dead quarry is then taken for the table. In my opinion this differs from fox hunting in that it is 'the speakable in pursuit of the edible'.

On a social level the other massive distinction is that by and large fishing is a working class sport( Yes, I know about the Windsors and their ilk), whereas hunting with guns or dogs is predominantly the domain of the so called upper classes, despite the token novelty lottery winner ex milkman in a red coat. ( 'Our sport is open to all'. B......t!) In a way this makes us more vulnerable as we, the prols, do not have the clout of the landed gentry.

You're right to say we have to choose our words carefully. For that very reason we must be careful that the anti's cannot misconstrue our well intentioned opinions.
 

Baz

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I would agree with you Ron that not all people who go fox hunting are of the gentry.
Take the Lake District for example. Up there they hunt on foot, but still use pack hounds, and that involves anybody who owns a dog. It is simply a gathering of people who enjoy a day out on the fellside. It is very much a tradition. And these people do often draw a blank.
They know where the fox dens are, so why don?t they sit out and shoot them at the first opportunity if they are causing so much damage? Because it is tradition.
A fox is a dog, if a neighbour mistreats a dog, he can be fined or jailed, so why is it different for a fox? Again it is tradition, which in this day and age is no excuse to carry it on.
The only reason I am in this discussion is because this is something I do know a bit about. But then again you don?t really need a PHD to determine that killing foxes in this manner is cruel.
 

alan

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Im with Baz on this one. shoot them if they are a pest, ripping them to pieces with a pack of dogs is cruel.
 

Peter Jacobs

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It is very interesting to note that IF the Government were to "push through" any legislation then they would have to abandon normal parliamentary protocol and engage in tactics that have (to date) been reserved for so called "crisis legislation"

It is also interesting that barely 18 months ago Blair and sevral of the Cabinet Ministers signed themselves up to the "Regulation" of hunting, as in Alun Michael's bill.

If this government continue to take their (now seemingly normal) route of "U" Turns to satisfy certain minority factions then what price should we set on their principles?

How, for instance are they going to get around the reintroduction of a Bill that has already been ruled as being "non compliant with the Human Rights Act" by the Joint Parliamentary Committee?

For the record, I am not necessarily in favour of Fox Hunting, neither am I that much against it.
I am, however, very much in favour of seeing proper parliamentary procedures maintained and NOT tossed aside at the first sign of a backbench revolt!
 
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Ron Troversial Clay

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And Blair will attempt overturn any decision made by the House of Lords to get this thing through.
 

Peter Jacobs

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There appear to be only 3 days in which the House can reintroduce this Bill, those being September 14th to 16th inclusive.

Given other business (like the Northern Ireland Summit talks at Leeds Castle) it would mean that the bill would have to be dealt with in all stages within one day, or two at the most.

Only crisis legislation like terrorist threats have been dealt with so swiftly, and that only when the House is largely in agreement.

Such would be the ground-breaking actions required by Blair et al to get this Bill pushed through at this sitting.
 
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Ron Troversial Clay

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If this bill does go through, there will follow the most significant series of civil disobediance acts since the Peasants Revolt. Throughout England there will be more hunts taking place over one day than ever before. It's been planned - mark my words.
 
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MaNick

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It dismays me that people are quoting stuff like

"Hunting shooting and fishing are mentioned in the same breath as each other by the antis"

BELIEVE ME!.. the people trying to align US (anglers) with the other types of hunters are in fact the people who protect and pursue those activities!!!..because on their own they dont have a leg to stand on!..

RON, is correct in saying that it is not only the landed gentry that FOXHUNT, many normal people do too!..

As some of you know, i visit a Horse yard everyday, because my Girlfriend owns one!..
MOST people who foxhunt dont have any feeling at all for the fox, they just want a good ride.
This is where the difference is, those normal riders are much more prepared to persue the type of hunt that BAZ mentioned, where runners are set of with a scent.

It is, however, the Landed gentry who like to exercise their rights to ride their horses over peoples gardens,fields.. etc etc, in persuit of a "pastime" that they feel they have a god givben right to persue.

SOON THEY WONT THANK GOD!

They'll get over it,and drag hunting will become more acceptable.

HUNTING is a VERY popular pastime round these parts, BTW.. As is SHOOTING etc etc
 

John Jones

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Well done Peter, you managed to get the words 'Blair' and 'principles' into the same discussion. What next, 'Mandelson' and 'truth'?

The only reason Blair and his cronies are so keen to push through this legislation is because it appears to have majority support among the public. It has nothing at all to do with them believing it is the right thing to do. It is popularism plain and simple.

How else can it be explained when there are so many more important areas of concern to be addressed like law and order,the NHS and education.

Strange how the emotive subject of fox hunting is raised by this government whenever the s is about to hit the f on other matters.
 
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Ron Troversial Clay

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A good ride?

You must be joking. The whole idea of fox hunting is to catch old Reynard and to be in at the kill.

The kill is the single reason why fox hunting is done. Then there is the ritual of the blooding. All new riders who have not seen a kill are blooded by the master of the hounds. That means wiping the "brush" across your cheeks. You are not a true fox hunter unless you have been blooded.

It's all about ritual and the centre stage to that ritual is the death of the fox.

Believe me this is true.
 
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Ron Troversial Clay

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Read the words of that old hunting song - John Peel.
 
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Ron Troversial Clay

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The second verse of John Peel who was a master of the hounds and hunted on the Cumberland fells goes like this:

"Do ye ken John Peel and Ruby too.
Ranter and Ringwood, Bellman and True,
From a find to a check,
From a check to a view,
From a view to a death.
In the morning."

Ruby was Peel's horse. The other names are some of Peel's hounds.
 
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MaNick

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RON you are wrong AGAIN!.. like i said, i talk to people who have hunted EVERY DAY.....

why dont you listen for once?....

Most people who go hunting go out for a RIDE!... they couldn't give a toss whever they catch a fox or not, and in fact, most would rather not!... as i said, it's the traditionalist who want the fox and the blooding etc etc because they want to be seen as living in some time where their social status actually meant something, unlike today, where, frankly most "common people" think they are a bunch of tossers!..

God forbid anyone searching the web and coming accross this thread, as ANGLERS we really should not be associating ourselves with the concept of HUNTING... we should be aligning ouselves with RECREATION and SPORT!
 

Baz

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I go with Nick on this one aswell.
I challenge anybody to give one good reason why fox hunting should go on in this manor.
 
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Ron Troversial Clay

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I am of course prepared to admit that I may be wrong about fox hunting. But I have read a lot about it, including various books. Read "Wild Lone" by BB (Denys Watkins Pitchford). Read "Memoirs of a Fox Hunting Man" by Seigfried Sassoon.

If you want to go out for a ride, you don't need a Master of the Hounds, or hounds, or lurchers or half the other things that that are part of the tradition of the hunt.

I can assure you if they catch a fox and kill it, they make a big thing about it.
 
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