The Political Parties

[Jim Gibbinson]

To return to the original subject: with which of the main parties is fishing likely to be safe (or safest)?

The point I was making - or trying to make - is that we cannot rely on politicians' stated intentions or promises, nor can we assume that the best interests of the public (in this particular case, us anglers) will be safeguarded; we have to look at track-record, trustworthiness and inherent inclinations and come to a judgement.

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay]

I remember speaking to Kevin Barron Labour Party MP for Rother Valley a few years ago about angling. This was at a days trout fishing I spent with him on a local water.

He told me he supported angling.

I then wrote to Denis MacShane who is Labour Party member for Rotherham. He also replied positively about angling.

Then I spoke to a Conservative Party Candidate for Rotherham at the last election. I've forgotten his name. He told me that as far as angling was concerned, his party's policy was to "leave angling's future in the hands of anglers".

"But you had better get organised into a national association"

Interesting?

So there perhaps is the difference beteen the two major parties.

Labour - supports angling but wants some sort of government interference ie: "The Charter."

Conservative - Leave the control of angling to anglers.

 

[Woody (Cheeky Monkey)]

CLive - I'm not saying it would be, but that is TRUE democracy - voting for the person who closest reflects your views and not necessarily voting along party lines.

Personally I will not vote for anyone that I don't have at least 50% confidence in of running the country how I would like to see it, which at the moment leaves me with no choice:

NONE OF THE ABOVE!

However, if our sitting Tory MP were to lose his seat, then the Conservaties would have less seats in the House than the Liberals had in their worst years.

Ron - I don't believe you have ever read the Angler's Charter published by Labour. It doesn't want "Government interference", it is a pledge of how they would support angling. Typically in the way our bodies would receive funding and the sport as a whole. Saying that, I don't hear any of this from the present administration.

 

[swordsy]

Clive it isnt about supremacy its about getting a true representation of the nations will and not this monstrocity we have now where we are being bullied and railroaded into the ideals and ultimate destinanation which is the goal of a tiny minority of left-wing extremists and not the will of the general population.

If true democracy was alive and well we would have the right to hang Ian Huntley, Tony Martin would have not gone to jail and a referendum would have been held on europe 8 years ago.

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay]

Jeff,

I have only scanned it.

But Barrie Rickards was very critical of the Charter asking why, we as anglers should want such a thing?

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay]

You have a point Lee.

Certainly, in this area, the vast majority of people would vote for a return to capital punishment if they got the chance.

And here we have a paradox.

The people of South Yorkshire whilst voting mainly for the Labour Party, have some of the most right wing views in Britain.

Give them a chance and they would have The Republic of Yorkshire with amongst other laws the following:

1: Return to the death penalty.
2: Return to corporal punishment in schools.
3: An end to the Royal Family.
4: Leave fox hunting alone.
5: Border posts and strict immigration laws.
6: Over all, "Yorkshire for Yorkshiremen"

I know, I have heard them!

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay]

And most of them can't stand Blair. They say he is not a true Labour man.

 

[Woody (Cheeky Monkey)]

"1: Return to the death penalty.
2: Return to corporal punishment in schools.
3: An end to the Royal Family.
4: Leave fox hunting alone.
5: Border posts and strict immigration laws.
6: Over all, "Yorkshire for Yorkshiremen"

I know, I have heard them!"


You know, Ron, because you are their leader! )

 

[Clive Evans 1]

Lee, your fly's open mate.
You're showing off your tiny right-wing extremism again, and you will upset the ladies.
It definitely is about supremacy. And to gain that, we have an election every few years, where the "general will of the nation"s, many and diverse wishes are reflected in votes.
You are not bullied or railroaded, you were simply out-voted.
Party politics have evolved purely as a practical way to organise partially or completely opposed factions into a functioning government.
Tainted with all the usual human frailties, I grant you, but the best we have at the moment.
You and I are certainly diametrically opposed politically.
I do not want the right to hang Huntley. I wouldn't give Martin the right to have a shotgun in his home. I would be as happy to be European as I am to be British.

Corkscrews at Dawn, Lee?

 

[John McLaren]

The problem is that, in the main, we vote for a party, not for the individual MPs. In addition to that people tend to vote on broad issues, not on specific ones.

The outcome of this system was clearly illustrated in the 1980s when Militant got control of Liverpool City Council and claimed that they had "a mandate" for their policies, when the reality is that they received ballot box support from less than 30% of the city's voters.

Also, because we vote on broad issues it leaves the way clear for the government to introduce issues that were not in their manifesto.

There is a clear need for a national representative body that can speak with authority on behalf of all anglers - but we keep going round in circles!

 

[swordsy]

Clive, your challenge is accepted!

UP A GUM TREE
COLUMBARD CHARDONNAY
SOUTH EASTERN AUSTALIA

VERY GOOD

First off less of the tiny o.k! My right wing extremism is of epic proportions.

Unfortunatly your line of attack is flawed as a very large percentage of the adult population are so disenchanted with party politics they chose not to vote in the first place, I think the turn out for the last general election was the lowest in recorded history. which says a lot for the state of democracy, people did not vote for several reasons one being the opinion it does not matter one iota who they vote for because politicians are all lying, thieving, two-faced cheats who would sell their daughters chastity at a cattle market for a seat in parliament another reason being the deliberate and engineered "dumbing down" of the population, to deliberatly ensure that they are so apathetic and ignorant to what is actually going on in the world they do not care a jot so long as they can drink 24 hours a day smoke dope until their brain resembles a kipper watch corro, big brother, X-factor and eastenders and thereby be so brain dead not interupt the ruling class as they create a world that suits their agenda and not that of the general public.

So no, I do not accept the line of I was out voted and if you mut continue with my lable of "right wing extremist" which party frightened the big three the most?

The BNP, why? because a lot of people are sick of the state of the country and they see no other option but to become extremists!

I never mentioned Martins right to keep a shot gun but I would defend any mans right to kill an intruder, the moment an intruder steps over your threshhold he has left all his human rights behind and is at the mercy of the householder and seeing as the householder is unlikely to receive mercy, none should be given.

Ian Huntley, his fate should have been been at the end of a hangmans noose, you are in the minority when you defend the abolition of the death penalty, some crimes are so vile that the death penalty is the only option. Put that to a referendum and you will lose.

You would be as happy to be European as you would be to be British, well go and live in spain then! the "common market" was never meant to be a fast track to a federal superstate, it was a trading agreement not a devolution of sovereign states. The common market the EEC the EU the goal posts are moving and I want a say in it!!

going to have my supper now, a nice bit of dolcelata, creamy lancashire from dew-lay and a bit of french eppoisse.

All the best

BIG SWORDSY ;O)

 

[Clive Evans 1]

Lee, I can see I'm going to have a problem at the crack of dawn. A formidable opponent!

Fortunately I'll have no problem at all with your usual ill-thought argument.
Lack of objectivity, plenty of words, but little real substance.

Subjective argument always leads to unsound reasoning and I'll be happy to point out just a few of your misconceptions.

First and foremost, you do your fellow citizens an injustice to suggest they are victims of deliberate dumbing-down policy.
The small minority affected this way are perfectly capable of doing it to themselves! Politicians have no need to bother.
Secondly, if you take F/M forums as a microcosmm of society you will find that the majority are erudite, perceptive, and perfectly capable of distiguishing conspiracy from bullshit, when they hear or see it.

The BNP? Surely you are not a supporter of those mindless thugs? I credit you with more intelligence than that. And thus, I consider you far more dangerous to harmonious society than they are!
As for the 'lots of people' who are sick of the state of the country, I suggest both you and they put aside your political glaucoma and recognise that our current society is more equably well off than we have ever been. And for proof of that look no further than the rate of inflation and the price of housing!

Huntley, true is a vile criminal and I hope and trust he dies of old age in prison much as Hindley did.
But State murder is no more ethical than ordinary murder, regardless of public opinion.

Martin's burglar should certainly forfeit his rights, but the arbiter of punishment should be the law, not Martin. That way lies anarchy!

I'm not particularly for or against a Federal State. but I do consider sovereignty on a par with patriotism as a breeding ground for insularity, xenophobia, and Little England syndrome.
I am a citizen of the world and will live where best suits me.

If you dont vote, you are expressing indifference, not preference. Of those that took the trouble to exercise their rights, the Right was out-voted and I trust will be again this time. And if not, well, I'll probably be a wine-soaked bum after our dawn tryst and it wont matter.

I dont know the 'epoisse' but I was brought up on lancashire and I delight in dolcelata.

 

[jason fisher]

if a dog attacks a human there is a massive outcry that the dog should be putdown, we would all say that a dog is incapable of subjective reasoning and is probably trying to defend itself when it attacks.

humans are on the other hand truly capable of subjective reasoning, the ones such as huntley, sutcliffe and the rest are worse than a dog which attacks they made the choice to kill and so should be put down just the same. Once more it is the hysteria about the sanctity of human life which stops them from suffering this punishment.
personally i don't think they should be hung just walked into the middle of wembley stadium and an announcement about who they are and what they did be made.
we could all take part in the putting down process then.

 

[swordsy]

The epoisse is fine when young but once it has ripened its a little bit "pissy"

No really, I do beleive there is a dumbing down of society.Why else would a government de-criminalise a substance, however harmless it may seem to the user, when it actually renders them moronic catatonics for hours on end and blows a hole in their short term memory so big you could roll a cheddar through it. As for the medias involvment in it check out the news, its rubbish! Its all sound bites and no content. As for the papers all they contain is celebrity gossip, soap stories and scandalised dross.

The state of the country? The country is on borrowed time, the national debt is over a trillion pounds and the housing market is partly to blame the entire thing is going to blow! I live in a house I bought for ?39,500 ten years ago it is now worth triple that amount should I wish to sell it, which is fine for me but the kids who want to get on the housing ladder are buggered. Everywhere you look there are more and more adverts for debt control agencies, credit cards and personal loans, the entire thing stinks. yes I earn more I know but I also pay more in tax, what do we actually pay in tax as a percentage of our earnings? 85%? we are nothing but tax cows that are there to be milked and the goverment do not want us thinking about that too much, that is why we have the nanny state to molly-coddle us all and run our everyday lives, tell us what to think and what to say.It makes me sick.

Ian huntly is a truly vile person, dies of old age in prison? maybe, maybe not! How many offenders walk away from long jail terms and reoffend, destroying yet more innocent lives? it is happening everyday of the week. You do not get parole from a hanging.

Who was there to protect Tony Martin? the theives had raided him before and nothing had been done, how many old age pensioners are attacked and killed in their own homes or whilst out shopping? what type of protection are they recieving from the authorities? ASBO, don't make me laugh!

whether or not you are for or against a federal europe is irrelavent as it was never on the original agenda, it therefore should go to a referendum, a trading agreement is one thing the EU is something entirley different.

anyway got to go, just finishing off my new book its called "mien kampfe II" its all about the new order that will rise out of the anarchy that is the future.

;O)

SS wordsy

 

[swordsy]

Jason you will do for me!!

It certainly beats Jannet Jackson and Justin Timberlake for halftime entertainment.

 

[Clive Evans 1]

Jason, well done. You have just subjectively argued that you are capable of subjective argument.
I never said you weren't. I merely said that subjective argument always led to unsound reasoning, ie, bias, bigotry, and barminess. A quick perusal of Swordsy's and your posts, shows very little objective reasoning. Therefore.......

I have never been 'hysterical' in my life. I am as indifferent to the sanctity of Huntley's life as I am to your Wembley ambitions. If you wish to appoint yourself as candidate to be the next Albert Pierpoint, I wont vote against you.

I personally have no wish to commit murder, directly or indirectly.

 

[Clive Evans 1]

Lee,
therein lies the reason I stated that I considered you more dangerous than a few mindless thugs.

In my world you have a right to voice your opinions and the right to vote for them.

In your Brave New World, I would have no voice at all.

I note you didn't distance yourself from the BNP??

Dont work too hard.

 

[Jim Gibbinson]

We've gone way off the subject, but while we're there may I make a comment regarding capital punishment?

Emotionally, when considering the Huntleys, Stones and Sutcliffes etc. of this world, I support it. But - and it's a big but - the knowledge that a guilty verdict might result in someone being executed would put a tremendous burden on juries. That burden would be so great that it might undermine dispassionate reasoning which, in turn, might actually result in more murderers being acquitted and going free.

Also, what about a hostage situation? Let us say someone hijacks a plane, and kills someone in the process. They can only be executed once, so what disincentive is there for them to kill others?

As I said, on an enotional level I support capital punishment - but were there a referendum I would vote against it for the reasons given.

 

[swordsy]

Everyone has a voice an opinion and a vision of the future but the future that is coming our way is not the vision of the many but the vision of the few, here are a few of my reasons behind such a statement

1) If put to the public the death penalty would be reinstated for child killers.

2) If put to the public we would regain controls of our own borders, deporting without right of apeal any political, ethnic or theological undesirables e.g Abu Hamza, Mohamad Bakri, economic migrants who "do not" want to work and the slave traders of what ever creed

3) If put to the public we would probably pull out of europe altogether, never mind the question of the single currency. A referendum on the issue was promised a promise that will be delayed until it suits. I personnally would not pull out of the trading agreement put it is sickening the amount of power that Brussels now has over our day to day lives.


That is just three of my reasons, I would go on but I have a headache of epic proportions, a condition I probably imported in the bottle of ozzy chardonnay.


No, I did not distance myself from the BNP, did I? I suppose I should do that now then........."Can you lot go home now? Stop crying you can come again another day!Next week? yeah o.k, make sure you bring your sleeping bags though"

Right I have sent them home, is that o.k now?

:O)

 

[Clive Evans 1]

And there Jason , is your perfect example,in a nutshell.

Subjective viewpoint, objective argument.
Sound and round.

Well said Jim.