Very realistic comment Steve. That's always been my experience too.
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- Thread starter cg74
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Very realistic comment Steve. That's always been my experience too.
Neil Maidment
Moderator
I've submitted a few articles and intend to do more. I enjoy the process of writing and find it rewarding in its own right. Certainly don't expect pats on the back and loads of thanks but, like Sean, would like to see a counter on all articles.
I write a very minor blog and have had the odd comment posted but I'm amazed about how many emails and PMs I get from individuals looking for a bit more info on the subject. They seem to want to keep it personal and direct rather than ask on the open forum/blog.
I spend a lot of time reading on all sorts of subjects, fiction, non fiction, biographies as well as God knows how many sports subjects but I've never once sent a comment to the author/publisher!
I write a very minor blog and have had the odd comment posted but I'm amazed about how many emails and PMs I get from individuals looking for a bit more info on the subject. They seem to want to keep it personal and direct rather than ask on the open forum/blog.
I spend a lot of time reading on all sorts of subjects, fiction, non fiction, biographies as well as God knows how many sports subjects but I've never once sent a comment to the author/publisher!
geoffmaynard
Content Editor
I think this is because many anglers like to keep their cards close to their chests Neil. They think you are more likely to tell them your secrets in a private email than on a public forum. 
cg74
Well-known member
I was never implying that writers should expect thanks and praise for their efforts, just can't help but wonder why after reading an enjoyable piece, how come no one seems to bother to engage themselves enough to even acknowledge the writers efforts.
As for never sending an author of a book praise by way of a letter, a few major differences:
Contributers to this site don't get paid, this is an internet site and as such members are only a matter of seconds (including logging-in time) from making a comment.
So basically a reader of an article can spend 5+ minutes reading yet can't manage a few seconds to offer any sort of feedback.
I applaud Steve Pope and other writers for their selfless attitude towards writing but sorry, I think quality writers will fade away if members can't be assed to even offer any thanks.
Each to their own but manners cost nowt, nadda, nuffin!!
As for never sending an author of a book praise by way of a letter, a few major differences:
Contributers to this site don't get paid, this is an internet site and as such members are only a matter of seconds (including logging-in time) from making a comment.
So basically a reader of an article can spend 5+ minutes reading yet can't manage a few seconds to offer any sort of feedback.
I applaud Steve Pope and other writers for their selfless attitude towards writing but sorry, I think quality writers will fade away if members can't be assed to even offer any thanks.
Each to their own but manners cost nowt, nadda, nuffin!!
Ray Roberts
Well-known member
A lot of them already have mate.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Having written 200 articles on here, a number of magazine articles and several books, I have to say that feedback is the exception rather than the rule. I have had more response to letters to the press sometimes than articles. with books it tends to be people mentioning that they like a book rather than letters. On FM I reckon only about half of my articles ever got a comment. Can't tell any more since the server shift as the links were broken but Graham said don't worry, if they are cr*p I'll tell you!
Anyone writing a lot gets to know what they are most proud of and what is more average for want of a better word.
Anyone writing a lot gets to know what they are most proud of and what is more average for want of a better word.
geoffmaynard
Content Editor
I don't think they'll ever fade away. Some of the same top quality guys (like Mark) still write for FM. Others drop out, some have said everything they have to say, some migrate to other sites, some die.... but new ones emerge and it's amazing how high the standards are really.
Dicky (Angling Trust PAC)
Senior Member
I've written a few articles over the years for various mags (Angler's Mail, Midland Angler et al) and a few for FM too.
As Mark says feedback is the exception rather than rule; I write because I enjoy it.
On FM I reckon 10 comments for a feature is exceptional and in print I only ever got one letter in response to an article and that was asking what exactly Ron (The Hat) experienced in a ghostly roach session on the river Leam...
And I still don't know the answer...
As Mark says feedback is the exception rather than rule; I write because I enjoy it.
On FM I reckon 10 comments for a feature is exceptional and in print I only ever got one letter in response to an article and that was asking what exactly Ron (The Hat) experienced in a ghostly roach session on the river Leam...
And I still don't know the answer...
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Kevin Perkins
Well-known member
No comment on articles, well, I’ve got a few.............!
Whilst not expecting the great unwashed masses on FM to genuflect and prostrate themselves to my every utterance, do (did) I not at least have the right to know how my offering has been received?
Just the warm glow of satisfaction to see my written words up on the website is reward in itself – right? Well, consider that the (allegedly) entertaining pieces I wrote have to be dreamt up from scratch. They did not have a base of ‘I went there’ or I did this’ for me to work on. Normally I would have two or three ‘bits’ of ideas that need filling out to the normal 800-1000 words.
On average, from start to finish, I would say 2-3 hours per piece. That was almost one offering every week for well over seven years. And all for free, of course, although apparently that’s not always the way...........
Originally Posted by Steve Pope: You write an article because you want to, you think you might have something interesting to say and you do your best to make it enjoyable.
And if you are able to do it regularly enough it can help pay a few bills in some cases!
Well, good for you if you can, and if we take the mercenary position, your reward comes in hard cash. If an editor has paid you for your work, what the readers make of it is immaterial, to a degree. But, let me tell you I recently submitted a Xmas story to the editor of a weekly angling publication. The editor told me it was a great story and really well written, but wasn’t sure it would ‘fit’ into a news driven publication such as his.
Stupidly I had thought that their ‘Xmas Special’ edition might benefit from a ‘Xmas Story’ being as most of the country was frozen solid and there wouldn’t be a lot of fishing news to comment on. Oh, and I also offered to have some professional artwork done to illustrate the article, but to no avail. There wasn’t enough room for my piece amongst all the adverts that ‘special’ week.....
If you are contemplating writing for the legitimate angling press, make sure you piece exactly fits into their template, or you won’t have a chance. How do you find out what this template is, I hear you ask. Well, just buy a copy of the publication, or pop into your local dentist or doctor’s waiting room and swipe a six year old copy, because by and large, the content won’t have changed at all in that time.
Just to remark on those who say they have read many articles in magazines or books and have never thought to comment, by buying that magazine or book have you not, to some extent, already accepted the contents contained within?
Books and magazines are not interactive in the way the internet is. If you take the trouble to write to the author of publisher of a book, what will happen to your comment? You may/may not even get a reply, and whatever happens, you can be sure your comments will not be published in the next edition of that book.
If you write to the editor of a magazine/paper, you may/may not get your comment published in the letters page (if they have one) next week/month. Now, without the original piece to refer back to, and several weeks/a month later, the impact of your comment will be considerably lessened.
But, and it’s a big fat but, you first have to get your comment past the editor. Bear in mind that if the editor has paid a contributor for his /her article any adverse comments on that article could be seen as an adverse comment on the editor’s judgement. And the likelihood of any editor offering up a stick for his readers to beat him with would be.......
Back to the internet - Originally posted by Fred Bonney: I know Kevin Perkins was regularly disappointed with the lack of response too.
Fred’s right with this. On one level, because I felt I was writing for my peers and I was desperate for direction, and in truth, encouragement. Because it was all new to me and I hadn’t (still don’t) really got an idea as to what I was doing.
Having your ‘baby’ posted up on the front page of FM and sent off into cyber world without any idea of how it is being received is a little bit deflating, to say the least. And whilst I take onboard the comments that writing the piece is reward in itself, without any interaction between reader and writer it feels like chucking your words into a void at times. A ‘hit’ counter to at least show that people had looked at your offering would have/still would be a great comfort.
Now, back in the bad old days of FM, at least all the regular contributors had their own archive. You could easily catch up on ‘Wintle’s World’ or if you were really desperate the ‘Alternative Angler’. And that would be all of the offerings that the contributors had put forward.
Still, that was then, and this is now. Apart from that, I’ve got nothing else to say........
Whilst not expecting the great unwashed masses on FM to genuflect and prostrate themselves to my every utterance, do (did) I not at least have the right to know how my offering has been received?
Just the warm glow of satisfaction to see my written words up on the website is reward in itself – right? Well, consider that the (allegedly) entertaining pieces I wrote have to be dreamt up from scratch. They did not have a base of ‘I went there’ or I did this’ for me to work on. Normally I would have two or three ‘bits’ of ideas that need filling out to the normal 800-1000 words.
On average, from start to finish, I would say 2-3 hours per piece. That was almost one offering every week for well over seven years. And all for free, of course, although apparently that’s not always the way...........
Originally Posted by Steve Pope: You write an article because you want to, you think you might have something interesting to say and you do your best to make it enjoyable.
And if you are able to do it regularly enough it can help pay a few bills in some cases!
Well, good for you if you can, and if we take the mercenary position, your reward comes in hard cash. If an editor has paid you for your work, what the readers make of it is immaterial, to a degree. But, let me tell you I recently submitted a Xmas story to the editor of a weekly angling publication. The editor told me it was a great story and really well written, but wasn’t sure it would ‘fit’ into a news driven publication such as his.
Stupidly I had thought that their ‘Xmas Special’ edition might benefit from a ‘Xmas Story’ being as most of the country was frozen solid and there wouldn’t be a lot of fishing news to comment on. Oh, and I also offered to have some professional artwork done to illustrate the article, but to no avail. There wasn’t enough room for my piece amongst all the adverts that ‘special’ week.....
If you are contemplating writing for the legitimate angling press, make sure you piece exactly fits into their template, or you won’t have a chance. How do you find out what this template is, I hear you ask. Well, just buy a copy of the publication, or pop into your local dentist or doctor’s waiting room and swipe a six year old copy, because by and large, the content won’t have changed at all in that time.
Just to remark on those who say they have read many articles in magazines or books and have never thought to comment, by buying that magazine or book have you not, to some extent, already accepted the contents contained within?
Books and magazines are not interactive in the way the internet is. If you take the trouble to write to the author of publisher of a book, what will happen to your comment? You may/may not even get a reply, and whatever happens, you can be sure your comments will not be published in the next edition of that book.
If you write to the editor of a magazine/paper, you may/may not get your comment published in the letters page (if they have one) next week/month. Now, without the original piece to refer back to, and several weeks/a month later, the impact of your comment will be considerably lessened.
But, and it’s a big fat but, you first have to get your comment past the editor. Bear in mind that if the editor has paid a contributor for his /her article any adverse comments on that article could be seen as an adverse comment on the editor’s judgement. And the likelihood of any editor offering up a stick for his readers to beat him with would be.......
Back to the internet - Originally posted by Fred Bonney: I know Kevin Perkins was regularly disappointed with the lack of response too.
Fred’s right with this. On one level, because I felt I was writing for my peers and I was desperate for direction, and in truth, encouragement. Because it was all new to me and I hadn’t (still don’t) really got an idea as to what I was doing.
Having your ‘baby’ posted up on the front page of FM and sent off into cyber world without any idea of how it is being received is a little bit deflating, to say the least. And whilst I take onboard the comments that writing the piece is reward in itself, without any interaction between reader and writer it feels like chucking your words into a void at times. A ‘hit’ counter to at least show that people had looked at your offering would have/still would be a great comfort.
Now, back in the bad old days of FM, at least all the regular contributors had their own archive. You could easily catch up on ‘Wintle’s World’ or if you were really desperate the ‘Alternative Angler’. And that would be all of the offerings that the contributors had put forward.
Still, that was then, and this is now. Apart from that, I’ve got nothing else to say........
chav professor
Well-known member
I suppose, as a recent writter (well - I've submitted two articals), I have generally found the presence of feedback a source of relief. what follows the submitting of an an artical is a period of, well vulnerability, i suppose. Is it OK? Is it actually what people are interested in?
But yes, just a few comments of appreciation does go a long way good. I do write after all because I enjoy it. If someone else connects with an experience I have shared, I think it just makes it feel all the more worth while.
But yes, just a few comments of appreciation does go a long way good. I do write after all because I enjoy it. If someone else connects with an experience I have shared, I think it just makes it feel all the more worth while.
noknot
Well-known member
"But yes, just a few comments of appreciation does go a long way good. I do write after all because I enjoy it. If someone else connects with an experience I have shared, I think it just makes it feel all the more worth while"
Exactly my point! I never wrote an article for a "pat on the back" but as above some feedback is nice.
Exactly my point! I never wrote an article for a "pat on the back" but as above some feedback is nice.
Kevin Perkins
Well-known member
Thanks for that Stikflote, obviously my use of famous literary quotes from the great Victorian novelist and playwright Edward Bulwer-Lytton is lost on some. And having reard and re-read the piece I wrote, nowhere could I find anywhere in it where I actually asked anyone for a reply, let alone one from your good self.
I was merely trying to draw reference to the 66900 or so members of FM who take everything from the site and are prepared to give nothing in return for the unpaid efforts of all the contributors - hence the reference to 'the mases'.
I have spent some time scouring the site for all (or indeed any) of the articles you have posted in your sx or so years of FM membership, by the search engine must be broken as I couldn't find any.....
Now, I am not saying that those who do contribute to the site are any better (or more washed) than those who do not. I just think it would be a common courtesty for the over 99% of members give the less than 1% a little encouragement for the work they do to keep the site supplied with articles.
Whether the pieces are your particular' thing' or not, if you do click on and read them, the least (and it is the very least) members could do it to leave some sort of feedback.
And particularly if the writer is having his/her first piece(s) put up on the site. There is nothing worse for a virgin writer to have their work appear in print for the first time only to have it apparently ignored by 67000 people for want of a comment or two.
geoffmaynard
Content Editor
I couldn't agree more. Even just clicking the star rating on the "rate this article" would help. We had Colin move this feature to place it directly below the last line of article text to encourage clicks - but it didn't seem to make too much difference.
As an aside and to clarify things, ALL the articles contributed to FM are unpaid ones. This includes pieces written by 'superstars' or big-name anglers, the admin, editors, mods or other FM staff. Like the rest of the contributors, they too all submit articles for free.
Re the authors archive Kevin mentioned earlier, yes some pieces seem to have been mislaid, broken or lost in the move to the new format - but the 10 most recent submissions from any author is listed beneath their most recent article. If someone wants to go back further, they can use the custom search box at the bottom of this page. (It's listed as Google but it returns very different results from a 'normal' google search). Hope this helps.
jef bertels
Well-known member
- Joined
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Kevin,
I DO think the people who contribute to this site are better than those that don't. Whether that's sharing their knowledge in articles or posting help on the forum. Without them, the non-contributors wouldn't have a site to read.
From now on, I'll bear the main point of this thread in mind and leave a comment on articles I particularly enjoy - only takes a few secs and is the least I can do.
I DO think the people who contribute to this site are better than those that don't. Whether that's sharing their knowledge in articles or posting help on the forum. Without them, the non-contributors wouldn't have a site to read.
From now on, I'll bear the main point of this thread in mind and leave a comment on articles I particularly enjoy - only takes a few secs and is the least I can do.
Jeff Woodhouse
Moaning Marlow Meldrew
Can we please just drop this constant reference to 66,900 (give or take a thousand) members of the site, it's bunkum!
It's a count of the total registrations, not individuals. I can tell you that I just found 8 profiles that all belonged to the same person, you could do this on the old system, but not any longer. Also, there's an awful lot that registered just to leave some spam or scamming messages and then leave (thankfully). There are others that have registered and almost immediately found it's not the site for them so never return. Others have come and gone over the years too.
BUT we do NOT have 66,900 members.
What we do have is up to, and sometimes just over, 100,000 visitors to the forums each month. Some stay just a few moments and count as a 'bounce', it is doubtful that they read any articles unless a review. As for regular visitors that stay a while, read all the informations and articles they can, it is far, far less than you might expect, but then how many do you suspect read Angling Times or Angler's Mail page to page each week? Not that many is my guess!
But we do alright, I can tell you that many articles have more than 1000 reads so forget the 66,000 registrations or even 100,000 visitors, the simple fact is that 1000 people will have read and enjoyed your piece. That's twice as many people as will buy the book "Our Days With ****" for example (although no doubt it will be loaned to mates and probably end up with 1000 readers) as good as the book is. The fact that of those 1000 or so never leave a message does not mean it was cr@p or they didn't enjoy it, as I said before, not everyone (and that means the great majority) wants to leave little billet douxs.
As Mark said above "Graham said don't worry, if they are cr*p I'll tell you!" Same goes for me, I will not put up rubbish. Surprisingly, most of what we receive these days is excellent material, it may not always be grammatically correct at first but that's where we editors come in to make the authors look brilliant. With some writers, I have to say, their works mostly require no editing at all and I'm afraid I get rather complacent sometimes and don't always read them with a view to finding faults. Plus they are so interesting anyway.
In fact, the standard in the last twelve months has been getting better from my point of view, but that should not be seen as a reflection on what went on before the takeover because I wasn't the main editor then when GM did the job of making authors look good. If no one were to leave a message at all, at least the author would have the assurance that I think it's good enough to put up and after that, it's a case of how good he feels about it being published. We are not a publication where we need to fill space and therefore will not put up any old sort of tripe, but please let us judge whether it's tripe (we'll let you down gently if it is) or not.
All contributions are, in the first instance, welcome and new writers will be amazed at what they can achieve.
It's a count of the total registrations, not individuals. I can tell you that I just found 8 profiles that all belonged to the same person, you could do this on the old system, but not any longer. Also, there's an awful lot that registered just to leave some spam or scamming messages and then leave (thankfully). There are others that have registered and almost immediately found it's not the site for them so never return. Others have come and gone over the years too.
BUT we do NOT have 66,900 members.
What we do have is up to, and sometimes just over, 100,000 visitors to the forums each month. Some stay just a few moments and count as a 'bounce', it is doubtful that they read any articles unless a review. As for regular visitors that stay a while, read all the informations and articles they can, it is far, far less than you might expect, but then how many do you suspect read Angling Times or Angler's Mail page to page each week? Not that many is my guess!
But we do alright, I can tell you that many articles have more than 1000 reads so forget the 66,000 registrations or even 100,000 visitors, the simple fact is that 1000 people will have read and enjoyed your piece. That's twice as many people as will buy the book "Our Days With ****" for example (although no doubt it will be loaned to mates and probably end up with 1000 readers) as good as the book is. The fact that of those 1000 or so never leave a message does not mean it was cr@p or they didn't enjoy it, as I said before, not everyone (and that means the great majority) wants to leave little billet douxs.
As Mark said above "Graham said don't worry, if they are cr*p I'll tell you!" Same goes for me, I will not put up rubbish. Surprisingly, most of what we receive these days is excellent material, it may not always be grammatically correct at first but that's where we editors come in to make the authors look brilliant. With some writers, I have to say, their works mostly require no editing at all and I'm afraid I get rather complacent sometimes and don't always read them with a view to finding faults. Plus they are so interesting anyway.
In fact, the standard in the last twelve months has been getting better from my point of view, but that should not be seen as a reflection on what went on before the takeover because I wasn't the main editor then when GM did the job of making authors look good. If no one were to leave a message at all, at least the author would have the assurance that I think it's good enough to put up and after that, it's a case of how good he feels about it being published. We are not a publication where we need to fill space and therefore will not put up any old sort of tripe, but please let us judge whether it's tripe (we'll let you down gently if it is
) or not.All contributions are, in the first instance, welcome and new writers will be amazed at what they can achieve.
geoffmaynard
Content Editor
One of the best anglers I know reads everything there is to read on this site and comments about pieces to me whenever we meet. Like many over 60s, and even perhaps the vast majority of that age group (?) he has never learned to type and so will never post on the forums as it takes him forever to find where any particular letter is on the keyboard!
We in the online community tend to think that everyone can fluidly use a keyboard but that's just not so.
We in the online community tend to think that everyone can fluidly use a keyboard but that's just not so.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
My only response to Kevin's heart-felt plea is to read (if he hasn't already) Steven King's 'On Writing' where he describes his long struggle to get published and the nail so laden with rejection slips it fell out of the wall. It took him years and many rejections to get published. But he improved and succeeded in the end. It's the inspiration for my writing. I'll never reach his dizzy heights but I know it takes a massive amount of hard work and a hard head to keep banging on a brick wall. The only feedback I need is from editors - acceptance cheques are good enough! Must get on; a third through a chapter for Graham's new book, in between working on my own new book. Haven't got time for magazine work for the next couple of months.
Jeff Woodhouse
Moaning Marlow Meldrew
:wh :wh :wh :wh :wh
Sean Meeghan
Well-known member
I got a thank you last Saturday! Bumped into a guy from Newcastle on the Swale and he said he enjoyed my articles.
If you're reading this - sorry I didn't ask your name.
If you're reading this - sorry I didn't ask your name.