is the decline in roach linked to?

[fishy pete]

do u think the dicline in roach no's is down to an actual decline in there no's, or is it more to do with the fact that the rivers/streams ect don't get as heavily fished as they once did,now a large percentage of anglers dont bother fishing them anymore, prefering instead the gratification of catching 100lbs of carp on a freshly dug pond? or are no's of roach ACTUALLY in decline if so could it be the over use of pesticides on arable land sourounding farmland that is causing a shortage of small invertibrates, which roach feed on? or perhaps its more to do with declining spawning habitat on many rivers that have been canalised? or perhaps its over enrichment of streams /rivers with sewage effluent /fertalizers that are causing the problems,whatever the cause we need to take a look at situation and see what can be done to help what used to be britains no1 choice of fish for most anglers,[pre f1 carp of course!]

 

[fishy pete]

P.S. MARK exellent artical facinating read,point well raised.

 

[Matt Brown]

Nice article Mark. You see things the same way as I do.

I'm doubly upset because as a kid I used to read about all the fantastic Roach catches in famous rivers such as the Hants Avon and Dorset Stour.

After years of pololution the River Don started to produce Roach and these became bigger and bigger. The fishing was fantastic and finally I wasn't jealous of the quality of fishing in other parts of the country.

Then the Cormorants hit and many of the fish vanished - especially the big Roach. That was about 7 ot 8 years ago and although numbers of small fish seem to be on the up I haven't caught or seen a Roach over 1lb during that 7 or 8 years.

I really hope the Cormorant situation sorts itself out and a balance returns.

Until then I'll have to have the odd Southern river raid with Mike T!

I'd rather catch a 2lb river Roach than a 40lb Carp.

 

[Matt Brown]

Billy, Roach numbers and sizes have definately declined on many waters. Some people have fished for them for many years and have seen the changes.

When the Cormorants invaded many of the bigger fish had scars (strike marks).

Because more people are fishing commercials it should make river fishing for Roach even easier.

I think abstraction is an issue. All the rivers I know well are running slower and lower than they ever did. The Don, for instance, is around 18" lower than it was 19 years ago.

I'm not sure how this affects the Roach numbers though.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Another thought provoking article from Mark.

I know 3 stretches of, shall we say; 'a southern chalk stream' where the cormorant problem has been dealt with on an almost daily basis for the last few years.

Now, on these stretches the Dace have made an amazing recovery and the Roach are now beginning to show up in good numbers.

I know of another syndicated stretch where habitats have been created for Roach to breed and they have done so successfully over the past 3 seasons, but again, the cormora*t problem is controlled.

Matt, let us know when you are coming and we will see if we canot put you on a stretch where you might stand a better chance than by god and by guess.

 

[fishy pete]

hi matt,very good points raised in regards to cormarants,maybe its time goverment took this issue a bit more seriosly and listned more to the true gardians of the waterways,i.e. us anglers instead of the blinkerd one sided views of r.s.p.b? also on abstraction comments, obviosly lower river levels mean slower river flows, this as we all now contributes to silting up of spawning gravels e.c.t,but not as many people are aware of the effects it is having on fauna of rivers and streams,i.e. plants/invertibrates ect.for instance plants that are naturaly found growing in pacy clear rivers are bieng replaced by plants from slower deaper rivers and even stillwater varietys.this is only one exaple, but if you look at the knock on effects of aformentioned staitment,then think of how many other examples ther are . it all points towards a dramatic change taking place in our waterways.......

 

[Michael Townsend 3]

Spot on Mark
A small river that flows a hundred yards from where i live was stuffed with big roach 20 years ago. Over time the river has decreased in depth by half, and the roach have gone being replaced by chub and perch.
I travel hundreds of miles to try and catch roach that i once had on my doorstep, and it seems this is happening all over the country. In some areas pockets of big roach are still hanging on, but for how much longer ?
What are the causes ?
Cormorants ?
Abstraction ?
Chub ?
Barbel ?
Climate change ?
People have told me that things go in cycles and the river roach will come back, but i can't see it happening.

If roach were fury little creatures there would be a national campaign to find out what was going on, but as they aren't it looks like we'll all have to take to the gravel pits !

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)]

Excellent article Mark.

Yes I am right with you. The roach, especially the river roach, has provided the very roots of coarse angling skills.

And Matt, I would rather catch a 2lb river roach than a 50lb carp and a 15 lb barbel any day.

 

[Matt Brown]

Mike, I can't see the Torne ever recovering because of the water levels. I think the Roach are coming back in the Don but I do worry about the effect of Barbel.

 

[Beecy]

The Roach in the lakes I fish, and have fished since I was a kid, seem to either not grow as big or grow slower than they used to. A lot of roach of say 12 oz-1lb used to be in realy good nick and looked relatively young, now if you get one that size they nearly always look battered old things

 

[Graham Whatmore]

Three major changes in our rivers since those heady days may be at the root of the lack of roach.

1. The black death is a major cause obviously.
2. More of our rivers have a head of barbel and there appears to be a larger head of carp too, both prolific egg eaters and I wouldn't mind betting they take a lot of fry too.
3. Our rivers don't run so coloured for so long like they used to, its even possible to see a river running clear in higher than normal levels, and have you noticed how quickly it clears after high water conditions. Years ago a river would fine down and hold its colour for a week or more, not any longer though, as little as a day and the colour just drops out. This in itself doesn't affect roach numbers but it does make them more visible to predators so they are less inclined to feed.

 

[Mark Wintle]

Thanks for the comments; it's a tough one to analyse. The factors are many and varied. Part of the problem is that big roach need close on 10 years to get that way, even given good conditions. The Avon's decline is catastrophic; Matt and Michael are seeking a tiny pocket of roach with little chance of real revival despite the efforts of a handful of keepers, though the fish they are catching aren't BIG enough to interest the real Avon experts anymore, they're after fish over 3-8. At which point I lose interest. I satisfied my roach quest long ago which is why I don't bother with a 70 mile round trip to fight for one or two swims at dawn. On the Stour it's all mine (well nearly), and the propects for big perch are far better than roach, and I've got an unsatisfied quest there. If I pick up a big roach one day I certainly won't be disappointed.

I would like more stillwater fishery managers to follow the lead of Sway and manage big roach into existence; it can be done, and Sway isn't the only place to attempt it.

Though there's little danger of me catching either, a 15lb barbel or 50lb carp would be a catch of a lifetime for me, and far better than a 2lb roach on top of the ones I've had previously.

 

[Matt Brown]

Graham, the river colour issue does seem to effect the fishing on many rivers (the Trent for example) but the Don is very coloured and always has been.

 

[Steve Spiller]

Nice one Mark, very, very, interesting again.
On my local Bristol Avon it is rare to catch a roach over one pound.
Chub swims have changed to bream swims and vise versa. Carp are on the increase and so are barbel, but so too are cormorants.
I will never forget a session about four years ago, it was January, I was catching roach between 3/4lb to 1 1/4lb. It was the best ever roach session of my life, until a cormorant arrived. It dove down and came up with a large roach, the swim died!
The fish must have scattered everywhere!
I didn't get another fish after that, so I do blame the cormorants.
If we believe what is said to be true, the water quality of the Avon has increased ten fold, compared to many years ago.
So why else should the Roach be in decline?
I also saw the number of cormorants on the Stour this year and the number of large chub they were taking.
Black Death!

 

[john broomfield 1]

While I was still at school in the early sixties the River Tees from above Croft to the lower heavily tidal reaches at Yarm was one big roach swim. My self and other school friends could catch on a good day well over 20lbs of roach each averaging over the 1.0Lb mark with many approching the magic 2.0lb mark. I remember fishing at Yarm from the 'skin yard wall 'one Sunday during the big freeze of 1963. Ther were ice floes drifting down the tidal river and ice was piled up on the banks. We still cought fish, and always by the same method of laying on with bread flake. A big lump on a size 10 hook. I imagine looking at that gear now we would fall about laughing. Making remarks, like you wont catch on that gear son.
The fish were a bronze colour with dark red and ragged tail fins, more a chub like colouration than that of the silver roach. Could be somthing to do with the high peat content of the river and at that time the very poor water quality. The river suports salmon these days and big ones at that.
The roach had for me disapeared by the end of the sixties.
Recently they seem to be making a come back. I personaly have not taken many just the odd fish around the 10oz mark in a mixed bag of chub, dace and perch while stick or waggler fishing. Other anglers have done a lot better taking good bags of fish up to the 1.0 LB size.
But oh, how I would like to see thoes fish I cought as a child come back.

 

[Big Rik (ACA)]

All good points raised and I think it's a cumulative effect of most/all of the above.
I think the numbers of trout and trout hatcheries has had an adverse effect on the Avon especially.
The water is deoxygenated and then put back in to the river and any escaped trout devour all eggs and fry.

It's been at least two years since I had a good try for the roach on the Avon, knowing you're flogging a dead horse tends to mean you look for a venue and species that at least has a chance of producing a half decent day. (in my case at this time of year this means chub or barbel)

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)]

Rik has made a very good point. There are a very large number of trout hatcheries in the Avon valley. The water from these hatcheries, is certainly polluted with dissolved trout excreta and oxygen depleted too. Some of these farms need investigation in terms of the effuent they produce.

Many years ago (and I mean many years ago) I used to fish the Wylwye in Wiltshire. Here was a little chalk stream which contained a huge variety of species. Big wild brown trout, dace, huge grayling, thundering great roach, odd chub and it even had a few salmon running up it.

These days that river is only a shadow of what it used to be. I walked a 1/2 mile stretch of the Wylwye near Boyton a couple of years ago and what did I see - nothing, except for a very large grayling under the bridge at Wylwye.

It looked a sad reflection of its glory days.

 

[Big Rik (ACA)]

I think Ollie Cutts before he died tried to do something about the number of trout hatcheries through the Avon valley, I seem to remember there was something like 21 of them.

Excessive?

 

[Graham Whatmore]

Big Rik and Ron. I am not a boffin at all on the Hants Avon but whilst it is true to say that trout hatcheries do pose problems isn't it also true that those hatcheries were there before the decline of the roach. What I'm trying to say is it can't all be down to trout farms can it? Or can it?

That problem isn't the cause of the general decline in all rivers anyway, theres got to be a reason that is common to all i.e. pollution, predation, even abstraction may be a cause, could the authorities be putting chemicals in our rivers to help cleanse the water before abstraction?

They have never answered the phenomena that happens on a regular basis on the Severn whereby a brown cloud travels down the river on a regular basis and kills the fishing stone dead. I myself have experienced this and it is just as though someone has thrown a switch when this happens, you literally catch nothing afterwards, not a bite. Does this happen on other rivers I wonder?

Or could it just be a natural decline in the species that happens quite often in nature?

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)]

Yes there have been trout hatcheries in the Avon valley since the 50s. But I think there are a lot more of them today.

The water boards put all sorts of nasties into water these days and sewage effluents.

And many of them will not admit it.

There has just been a case of a load of Aluminium Oxide being put into drinking water by mistake. Aluminium has been linked with Alzheimers Disease. The only thing I can suggest here is to get a water filtration system on the drinking water in your house. This can be a simple activated carbon block filter fitted to the cold water supply under your sink which will remove chlorine compounds, pesticides, taste and odour and in some case heavy metals and cryptosporidium, to a complete RO system which will protect against many other nasties.

The treated sewage discharges that enter ou rivers often have fair concentration of flocculants plus chlorine and chloramines.

These things do fish no good at all!!