Are we hunters?

[laguna]

Inspired from another thread...

It has been suggested that all anglers are hunters and it is my opinion that we are not. Given that we have other means of catching fish at our disposal and especially so if you practice catch and release.

Unless you are of the firm belief that both angling and hunting are one and the same or that both terms have the same meaning, it is vital that we make the distinction between the two.
Before I make my case.... These opinions are mine and it is not my intention to force them on anyone here. As an angler, you must make up your own mind and form your own opinion. So without further ado...

A definition of Hunting and how it correlates to my way of thinking...
The pursuit, capture and release, or capture to eat of fish is called fishing, which is not commonly categorized as a kind of hunting, although many hunters may also fish. Neither is it considered hunting to pursue animals without intent to possibly kill.
The Definition and History of Hunting
I hope you will agree that fishing and angling are synonymous and that angling is but one method of fishing.

The above definition for me is the right one. there may be others which contradict, but for me it sits well.
I would no sooner purposefully go hunting with a tranquillizer gun for big game than I would go hunting by angling for fish.

Hunting can be fishing the same as shooting can be hunting. But not all shooting (target practice) or fishing (angling) is hunting is it? just the same as all angling by the above definition (a method of fishing) isn't hunting, you cannot say we anglers are all hunters. Accordingly; If you are an angler that hunts, you are an angler that kills!

If you say angling is hunting then you know as i do that there are better ways to hunt fish than to angle for them... if your argument suggests yes but it is more fun to catch them with hook and line, then it is a sport or recreational activity (angling) you are describing not hunting!

I will concede; hunting and angling can be both sporting and recreational it is true, and the distinction is not always evident but that's where the similarity ends.

Then there is fishing... (lets regurgitate this term into the mix), if you were to suggest that fishing was hunting then I might agree with you if your intention is to kill, but angling? - definitely not! especially if alternative more efficient methods of catching fish were at my disposal!
As I say; I would no sooner purposefully go hunting with a tranquillizer gun for big game than I would go hunting by angling for fish.
Splitting hairs? This debate will go on for ever and a day as fishing and angling are synonymous as this particular word incorporates angling as a fishing method, a method of catching fish.
"I'm going fishing tomorrow" does not mean I am going hunting if I am angling for fish. If I was hunting fish I would catch them by more efficient means, kill them and sell them at market. I am an angler and conservationist not a commercial fisherman, therefore despite having the ability, skill and instinct to hunt it does not necessarily make me a hunter when angling.

With the exception of the antis; angling has gained the respect as a leisurely and gentlemanly pastime even from some non-anglers from our catch and release programs, river management, aquaculture and conservation efforts etc. but can you say the same about hunting?
In my opinion there is a distinct difference. Ask Joe public of his/her opinion on "hunting" and see what the response might be.
Ask them the same about angling and see the contrast in their response. It will at the very least evoke a more favourable opinion.

What animal hunts for pleasure and releases its prey?
A cat will play with a mouse but ultimately the cat will kill the mouse just as surely as any hunter will kill its prey.

We may use our hunter instincts and skills to catch fish by angling for them but we are not necessarily hunting unless it is for food or trophy.
You would not snare a rabbit and then release it would you? and by the same token if you were hunting you would not hunt a fish and release it either.
My own definition of hunting is to pursue, persecute and kill, hardly the terms I would want to be associated with.
Your definition may be different and of course we are all entitled to our own opinions but it does not by any means make you wrong.

I'm the sort of guy....
If my maggot/worm survives from the impalement of a hook in its arse and near drowning, I will throw it in the grass in the hope it survives!

 

[chav professor]

Hi Chris,

To kick start this debate - I hope you don't mind me cutting and pasting across my responce from the earlier thread. i don't think there is a massive gulf between our opinions really.
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Hunting for food is just that - there is a purpose. There are some that think 'tormenting' a creature only to return it is indefensible - we call this angling....... but when I sea fish and take home cod, bass, whiting etc - I am still angling! - I am not a sea hunter or am I????

Take Germany for instance, culturally different. Coarse fish are widely ignored in favour of angling for the table. It is now difficult for recreational catch and release anglers to angle within the law. There have been prosecutions regarding causing unessesary pain and suffering to a live creature.

I would like to think that this arguement would not hold sway in the UK....... at the end of the day, anglers are widely accepted as mild mannered excentrics, who enjoy nothing more than sitting out in the rain - waiting to catch an old boot!

I think ALL recreational anglers regardless of wether they hunt, or release have at there core a sense of conservation...... conservation is not limited to protecting every individual, but rather ensuring that a species can thrive, reproduce etc in a clean, upolluted environment and not be overly exploited as a comercial commodity.
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I think the instinct with the angler is that of a hunter, targetting it's 'prey'....... But at the core of my existance I am a conservationist. I accept that for my pleasure, I target wild creatures who view my attempts with the same suspician and instinct to evade as they would if I was an otter.... they are being hunted! - its just that we put coarse fish back - but they didn't know that

But I do get your convictions Chris, and can see your point of view - I too am an angler - but being brought up with the gun, I too have learnt to respect my quarry, but probably from a different perspective. I think the way that some food is manufactured abroad is shameful - and find it immoral that some of our imported meat is treated as food. we can go fishing with cheap ham in our sandwichs with a clear conscience......... That is why I am happy to hunt - for the table (not having a preference for driven game).

I take acception at your definition of hunting (though I am sure, tongue in cheek) RE: Pursue, persecute and kill. We all do two thirds of this when we take a rod out to some extent - and two thirds don't make a right!

But when I am fishing, I define my pastime as 'angling' - and accept the burden of reality. There I think that's both sides defined: it will be interesting to see what you guys come up with........

Kind regards

Christian

 

[Tee-Cee]

Is this not a follow on from the original 'Hunter-Gatherer' meaning 'a nomadic people who lived by hunting, fishing and harvesting wild food'.....A people from whom we are decended and, at the time, a means of survival...
Is not our inbuilt instinct to survive by catching fish for food ( we now call ourselves 'anglers' ) and that this instinct is stronger on some than in others?

Yes, these days, in this country, we put our catch back in the water, but the initial instinct, surely, was to go out to catch fish to eat although some, like those of some European countries who still go out to catch fish to eat-its a food source!

I'm NOT making any clear statement here, only adding to the discussion and what I've written should just be treated as questions.........



Interesting thread though..

 

[dezza]

We may use our hunter instincts and skills to catch fish by angling for them but we are not necessarily hunting unless it is for food or trophy

That does not make sense.

The coarse angling "specimen hunter", hunts big fish for a trophy photograph which he shows to others to show people how good he is. He doesn't have to kill his prey to do this.

The trout fisher kills his catch to take home and eat, or even give away. Is he an angler? Yes, of course he is.

 

[agamemnon]

i would say all anglers are hunters, we seek (hunt) our target prey. be it hunting a fox with a hound and horse, hunting a lion with a rifle or hunting a fish with a rod.
if i am fishing a small river for pleasure and catch a trout then that trout is going to get a bang on the head and it will be my breakfast the next morning.

the definition of the verb hunt is: hunt verb ( SEARCH )
Click to hear the UK pronunciation of this wordClick to hear the US pronunciation of this word/hʌnt/ [I or T]
Definition
to search for something or someone; to try to find something or someone
I've hunted all over the place, but I can't find that book.
They are still hunting for the missing child.
I've hunted high and low (= looked everywhere) for my gloves.
Police are hunting the terrorists who planted the bomb.
I'll try and hunt out (= find) those old photographs for you.
They have spent months house-/job-hunting (= looking for a house/a job).

therfore you can be a hunter when you are just searching rather than going out to find food or a trophy.

 

[Bob Hornegold]

I really don't have a clue what this thread is about ?

Is it trying to say because we don't Kill our fish, it's not Hunters.

If it is, I beg to differ, of course we are hunters, the very use of a hook and line makes us hunters.

The fact that we hook our fish and pull them out of the water for our pleasure, makes us hunters.

If that does not sit very well with some anglers, it's my opinion that they are kidding themselves and maybe should reavalue the sport of angling.

At the end of the day, thats what we do, regardless of the methods we use to catch fish, we take them out off their enviroment and pull them into ours (for our Pleasure).

You can make all the valued arguments you like, but we are hunter, be it the pleasure angler, matchman or specimen hunter, we all use hooks and we all take the fish from their enviroment.

That is why the Germans say all fish caught should to be killed, as they believe it's cruel to remove a fish from water and not kill it ?

I disagree, I believe fish do not feel pain in the same way that mamals do and it's just part of our noble heritage of Shooting and fishing.

But to delude yourself into thinking that there is a difference between Fishing and Angling, because we care for our fish and return it to it's home, is just plain wrong !!

Bob

 

[dezza]

Quite right mate.

And angling is just another way of satisfying man's hunting instinct.

Think of the old saying:

"Man is a hunter, he goes fishing; women are gatherers, they go shopping."

 

[Paul Boote]

Quite right mate.

And angling is just another way of satisfying man's hunting instinct.

Think of the old saying:

"Man is a hunter, he goes fishing; women are gatherers, they go shopping."

"And angling is just another way of satisfying man's hunting instinct."

As well as, these days, doing a huge amount of (he tells himself) vital shopping.

"Cor, look at that rod! Must 'ave it. Don't tell 'er indoors. Grunt grunt."

 

[Merv Harrison]

"Man is a hunter, he goes fishing; women are gatherers, they go shopping."

Without tongue in cheek, women are also now the hunters BY going shopping for food clothing etc:

Man continues his hunting INSTINCT by angling, shooting, archery etc:

 

[Derek Gibson]

Guilty as charged. I am a hunter, simply because I choose to target a particular species, hopefully in the larger sizes. The fact that I choose to return the said fish, is neither here nor there.

 

[sam vimes]

Hunting and fishing have more in common than not. Catch and release is little more than a modern sop to public opinion, to salve the individual's conscience or to preserve future stocks so the angler can repeat the experience later. While I can understand why some anglers wish to distance themselves from hunting, I see it as PC nonsense and, no matter how hard they try, they aren't really fooling anyone.

 

[Paul Boote]

The "You Anglers are really hunters, join us and save your sport, for you'll be next..." refrain was tried on Anglers by outfits like the Countryside Alliance for the better part of the whole of the Noughties decade. To me, at the time, the argument just didn't wash, seemed to me purely political and self-interested on the part of the Hunting Lobby and very likely to tar "harmless, eccentric, under-a-brollie fishermen" (in the public's eyes) with the same brush if Anglers were to throw in their lot with the hunters, leave us looking something rather less likeable than harmless, eccentric, all-weather dreamers - a very very very bad move PR-wise. Huge amounts of time and bandwith were spent discussing the topic in those years, with me attracting the unrelenting ire and rudeness of smart set, County Crowd flyfishers and riverkeepers defending their jobs and their Lord and Master's view of things particularly merely for saying: "Now, hang on a minute chaps ... look before you leap...".

We Anglers didn't leap back then, and not only still have our reputation as conservationists (and not as killers) in tact but also still have the greater part of public opinion on our side, if only for being out of sight and out of mind, for not being part of the story. Hunters are hunters, I have nothing against them and their sport, but we Anglers are Anglers, a different breed altogether.

 

[flightliner]

We,re all hunters, simple as. When I am out I am looking for a catch, the same instincts are common across the board be it hunting game, vermin ,fish or fowl.
We put ourselves up as an aunt sally when we distance ourselves from others who take on the opposers.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

I think there is a continuum of what we call "hunting". At one end it could be shooting an elephant or whatever in the bush. At the other it could be hunting a butterfly for the Lepidopterist. Scientists also "sample" nature. Theres ethics to consider across all types of hunting..is it for profit? (eg tusks), will it endanger species populations (eg rare butterfly).

I like to think i am sampling the fish populations, but dont always aim for a representative sample (ie i target the bigger ones present)..but sometimes i am happy to catch anything !

With insect hunters it is called "collecting" - same as for plants.

I think many anglers employ a scientific approach - they record captures, weather conditions, baits all sorts. We are studying the natural environment and developing our understanding of it. We are also monitoring it and seek to safeguard it. This is all very positive stuff.

 

[chavender]

to hunt is to persue /to search out ,to hunt doesn't mean to kill ,i hunt fish ,i plan my hunt ,i seek signs to follow (i track my pray) and sometimes i actually catch what i seek ,but mostly i catch gudgeon & minnows .

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Sounds like shopping...perhaps how the female of the species pursues her hunting instincts

 

[Paul Boote]

But WE are Men, and s-o-o-o macho...

Monty Python Sub Ita: Mosquito Hunters (Gep) - YouTube

 

[laguna]

I conclude there can no right or wrongs here. An opinion is just an opinion and nothing more.
You are entitled to yours and I mine.
I have been an angler for the best part of.. well quite a while (cough) but don't get me wrong, I am not taking the moral high ground or being judgemental. It is purely my definition in my own words of what an angler is and it is my opinion that I am not a hunter.

A fish taken by whatever means for food or trophy is hunting
A fish taken for pleasure and recreation is angling

If you call yourself a hunter when angling then so be it, good luck and I wish you well in your hunting endeavours. :w

 

[chav professor]

Good thread Chris.

I shall sign off my arguement too... Having been brought up where food had been aquired by the gun, I am not shy or ashamed of the term hunting and am very comfortable to be associated with it.

I am a fisherman who hunts for fish and set myself the very highest standards that all living creatures are treated with highest respect. it matters not wether you kill or release from my perspective in this regard.

The special thing about fishing is that it allows humans to exersise their hunting instincts, instinct that sadly many are happy to suppress by following a new order of convention. Following the trend for modern youth culture, the new hunter gatherers seem to be hunting material wealth, celebrtity fame or seeking instant gratification offered by levelling up on a computer game.

You know what? The banks are in crisis, the middle east is in termoil, the cost of living rises, the countries up sh*t creek without a paddle, I have 60 sets of GCSE course work to mark before the weekend is out........ the list is endless...... I went fishing last night, and for those few hours..... nothing else mattered...... I was a very satisfied and fulfilled person.

 

[Ric Elwin]

The bloke who pays a fortune to plug a wild animal in Africa is hunting. As is the kid by the local pond with the 50p net aimed at sticklebacks. As are all anglers when they are engaged in the persuit of their prey.

The guy plugging clay pigeons with his 12 bore isn't hunting, he's honing his shooting skills. Either as preparation for hunting, or as an end in itself. The chap who goes out on the local playing field with his fly rod, aiming to place a piece of wool on a dinner plate isn't hunting; he's also honing his skills.

So, it's very simple. Searching or chasing a wild animal for any purpose is hunting. Hunting exists in many different guises, of course. We might want to moralise about whether different forms of hunting are ethical, or not, but that's a different argument.