Yet Another Rip Off?...Flavoured Groundbait

[maverick 7]

maverick,i dont see how you think i,m missing the point,like you just said fish still eat maggots etc,new baits and methods will keep on developing,i personally use a variety of baits throughout the season,and have never considered additives to groundbait a rip off,basically if you want to catch successfully you have to be prepared to use what is going to catch,or sit there with youre principles watching everyone else bagging up!!

Listen chefster......you are right in what you say...of course if you want to catch these days you HAVE to use the groundbait the masses are using or you will find yourself in my Swale predicament.......The point I was making .....is would it be the same had we stuck to plain bread groundbait....did we really need to change to catch more fish. I remember seeing massive bags of bream and tench taken on plain groundbait in the rivers of this country.....but I don't see that very often these days....despite all the colours and flavours under the sun being available.....why is this?

Your argument is that we have to change because fish "wise up" but I don't agree with that theory...remember it's only my opinion.....if fish did wise up...then why are we still catching loads of fish on maggot? The reason why we are still catching fish on maggot is because the bait is still used in great abundance...and it is my opinion...that if white crumb or brown crumb was still used in abundance...that too would still catch loads of fish....
....BUT IT JUST MY OPINION....

Maverick

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:47 ----------

Hey Maverick,chill out mate,dont let people wind you up,i know its hard but its only a forum mate KEEP POSTING!!

Yes you're right chefster.....sorry about that mate.

......and my apologies to nicepix too......should have counted to 10.

Maverick

 

[chefster]

Yes you're right chefster.....sorry about that mate.

......and my apologies to nicepix too......should have counted to 10.

Maverick[/QUOTE]

At least you dont keep banging on about centrepins and close season bollox

 

[Sean Meeghan]

Did somebody mention centre pins?

"of course if you want to catch these days you HAVE to use the groundbait the masses are using or you will find yourself in my Swale predicament"

You don't and I never have!

 

[maverick 7]

Did somebody mention centre pins?

"of course if you want to catch these days you HAVE to use the groundbait the masses are using or you will find yourself in my Swale predicament"

You don't and I never have!

Hi Sean....we are talking generally here mate....and we don't mean you would catch nothing with a less popular bait....just wouldn't catch as much as the ones using the "flavour of the week" bait.

......but you have definitely got my attention, do you want to expand on that?

Maverick

 

[chav professor]

I don't think continental ground baits are a rip off - they bring something to the party. Do flavours and additives work? of course they do!

I can confidently say that little tweaks really do make a difference.

The problem is, that some work really well, others appear to have little or no effect other than emptying your wallet. Plus, the smell of some ground baits is so strong as to be off putting - just a personal thought, prefer to tone down and this is where plain crumb is great - especially when the fish start to come on the feed.

I don't match fish - so can't compare my results competitively against other anglers performances. Personally, like to make my hook bait stand out subtly.

The best ground bait additives to draw fish into a swim and trigger competitive feeding? If I have them, any one or more of these; a handful of crushed casters, maggots, hemp - or most deadly of all - chopped lobs (collected for free and lots of them!) Who doesn't keep back a bottle or two of the strained hemp liquor frozen in the freezer to mix their ground bait or if I'm feeling flush, liquidize a can of sweet-corn. If the flavour is all artificial... I don't feel completely happy... much prefer to have a soup of soluble attractants made from the real thing if at all possible.


Not Chub, but keep me off the streets till June 16th....

Flavoring your hook baits is really cost effective - Archie Braddocks flavours are legendary for this purpose.

This season, I have started using krilled maggots (own version using a SAC juice) - and very impressive it has been too in comparison to unflavored baits.

I would say however, £3 or 4 doesn't stand out as a major financial rip off... I would actually say I just have more confidence doing things the way I want to. (Probably wouldn't be that happy if I had to fish competitively against anglers that knew what they are doing :wh - match fishing is tough and far too mentally draining)..

I still like to use a continental ground bait though... just prefer to make a bag last 2 or more sessions and not just to keep the cost down. I'm yet to be convinced that if money was no object - using loads of continental style products in any quantity would necessarily be better than cheaper alternatives. Doesn't everyone blend and mix what they feel is right for the day anyway?

 

[maverick 7]

I'm not sure that they do Chav....most anglers I know will buy a bag of groundbait and use it as it is....albeit, I am not a match angler either mate. I know I keep repeating myself but what I would really like to know....especially from someone like yourself Chav is.....did we NEED all these flavoured groundbaits introduced to fishing when in the 60's and 70's before this stuff became popular...tons and tons of fish was being caught without the aid of these flavoured and coloured groundbaits?

I never see catches like that anymore on the rivers...despite the introduction of all these different groundbaits.......so the question remains, did we need to change?

I don't know whether we did or didn't...but I think it is interesting to know what people think... I believe that individually..anglers are not fully in charge of what food the fish are eating at any particular time....that decision is usually taken en masse by all the anglers that fish the venue.

In other words.....the Swale example is perfect. I wanted to fish hemp and caster and did for most of the day....but this regular told me I should be fishing with halibut pellet....I changed and I had a barbel within minutes.

The decision wasn't mine....I had to use the bait the fish readily recognised as being their main source of food....the bait most of the anglers at that venue was using...and it is my opinion that...rightly or wrongly, that is how it works.

....but it IS only my opinion.....

Maverick

 

[chav professor]

Its difficult for me to imagine those halcyon days.. for the most part, whilst I don't doubt they ever existed, I wonder how great it was. I have been undertaking some research on fish stockings on my local Suffolk river.

When i enquired about fish stockings, we have to sensibly look to the 70's and an influx of fresh stock to bring a dead lifeless river system back from a series of catastrophic fish kills. Apparently there were some significant set backs in the early days... so it was not all plain sailing.

The other factor that is of interest is that fish population dynamics seem to follow cyclic patterns. Part of the reason i am interested in researching this river is that I want to record a picture of how the river is today as a reference for the future.

Fish seem to be getting bigger and bigger - but I wonder how much the actual biomass (the mass of fish per unit of water - I know, sorry, teaching to suck eggs) actually changes.

The impression I get about historical captures on some of the better known barbel rivers is that it was common to catch lots of small/average sized fish. These days, you are as likely to get a double as you would expect to land a 3lb barbel.

What happens when all these big fish pass onto the other side (R.I.P.)... something else would take its place - roach? Chub? dace? dunno

I have fished the swale - once - its a grand river. I went big bait, not too much approach and was happy to catch Chub and loose a barbel (cos I'm an idiot and used 6lb line).

I wonder how effective the mass baiting approach using hemp and caster is where there are not the numbers of fish to compete against each other...? Hard to say not knowing the river... But if there is a shoal of fish and you get them going on a simple bait like maggots - they are king over any ground bait IMO.

On a number of rivers, pellets are now seen as a regular food source - but they are instantly attractive from the off on bits of off the track river that rarely see any anglers bait.

Better drag it back to the ground bait part of the thread. Its hard to dismiss pellet in ground bait. In fact if its carp (and for the most part I shall have to include bream) i'm after... a bit of ground pellet of any type is a great addition. Chub like it and no doubt barbel appreciate the effort.

BUT ignore naturals and traditional baits at your peril - because on their day they can do the damage.

 

[sam vimes]

I have fished the swale - once - its a grand river. I went big bait, not too much approach and was happy to catch Chub and loose a barbel (cos I'm an idiot and used 6lb line).

I wonder how effective the mass baiting approach using hemp and caster is where there are not the numbers of fish to compete against each other...? Hard to say not knowing the river... But if there is a shoal of fish and you get them going on a simple bait like maggots - they are king over any ground bait IMO.

On a number of rivers, pellets are now seen as a regular food source - but they are instantly attractive from the off on bits of off the track river that rarely see any anglers bait.

I regularly fish the Swale and, with the exception of one extraordinary day, I've always found groundbait to be the kiss of death. I've also found mass baiting to be generally counterproductive, as far as barbel are concerned. I much prefer to use pva with small amounts of bait. There are lightly fished stretches where I've found pellet a dead loss. Pellet wasn't alone in this respect. Any of the bigger unnatural baits (corn, bread, meat, boilie etc) all seem to fall flat for me.

 

[nicepix]

I regularly fish the Swale and, with the exception of one extraordinary day, I've always found groundbait to be the kiss of death. I've also found mass baiting to be generally counterproductive, as far as barbel are concerned. I much prefer to use pva with small amounts of bait. There are lightly fished stretches where I've found pellet a dead loss. Pellet wasn't alone in this respect. Any of the bigger unnatural baits (corn, bread, meat, boilie etc) all seem to fall flat for me.

It was much the same on the Dearne, another lightly fished river. A few hook baits was enough, anything more and it killed it. A couple of lads I know who still fish it use these tactics with glugged pellets. They do very well.

 

[jimlad]

I regularly fish the Swale and, with the exception of one extraordinary day, I've always found groundbait to be the kiss of death. I've also found mass baiting to be generally counterproductive, as far as barbel are concerned. I much prefer to use pva with small amounts of bait. There are lightly fished stretches where I've found pellet a dead loss. Pellet wasn't alone in this respect. Any of the bigger unnatural baits (corn, bread, meat, boilie etc) all seem to fall flat for me.

I agree Sam. Little and often has often done well for me. I often find the best way pn the swale is to fish a single hookbait with one or two tasters. The only place I ground bait on a river is the lower tees for bream.


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[maverick 7]

I should make myself clearer at this point....

There was hardly any barbel fishing going on around that time....I am talking about rivers like the Witham and the Welland and drains like the Sixteen Foot drain and The Middle Level.

The very slow to still moving waters....no barbel at all.

Maverick

 

[Sean Meeghan]

Hi Sean....we are talking generally here mate....and we don't mean you would catch nothing with a less popular bait....just wouldn't catch as much as the ones using the "flavour of the week" bait.

......but you have definitely got my attention, do you want to expand on that?

Maverick

Sorry - been fishing!

Fish meal will draw barbel from a long distance on the stretches I fish, so on slow days when the fish aren't that active it does pay to use pellets. When the barbel are more active and moving around looking for food then pellets aren't a great advantage.

Barbel can be funny with baits like maggot and caster that don't have a strong smell. On several occasions I've had chub and barbel in a shallow swim and had the chub taking casters on the drop, but the barbel just hanging back not feeding. If I've then introduced pellet then the barbel move on to them almost immediately and start feeding. I've not managed to work out if this is because the pellet sink faster and the chub drop down on to them, disturbing the bottom and stimulating the barbel to feed or that the barbel smell the pellet and this stimulates them to feed.

I've not found another flavour that has a similar effect as pellets, but I'm reliably informed that milk protein boilies can work in the same way. Using these isn't recommended on more heavily fished stretches though.

Having said that if I go back through my records I can't see that using pellet has had a noticeable effect on my barbel fishing. I have a feeling that I get fewer blanks using pellet, but it doesn't really show in the records.

I do use flavours when fishing for other fish, but I can't really point to an instance where I'm certain that a particular flavour has worked better than any other. My mate Mick and I have circumstantial evidence that The Source can enhance the effectiveness of pellets and I feel that some flavours can help when chub fishing. I've been using dead maggots for some years now and I always flavour them, but no one flavour obviously works better than another.

 

[maverick 7]

Sorry - been fishing!

Fish meal will draw barbel from a long distance on the stretches I fish, so on slow days when the fish aren't that active it does pay to use pellets. When the barbel are more active and moving around looking for food then pellets aren't a great advantage.

Barbel can be funny with baits like maggot and caster that don't have a strong smell. On several occasions I've had chub and barbel in a shallow swim and had the chub taking casters on the drop, but the barbel just hanging back not feeding. If I've then introduced pellet then the barbel move on to them almost immediately and start feeding. I've not managed to work out if this is because the pellet sink faster and the chub drop down on to them, disturbing the bottom and stimulating the barbel to feed or that the barbel smell the pellet and this stimulates them to feed.

I've not found another flavour that has a similar effect as pellets, but I'm reliably informed that milk protein boilies can work in the same way. Using these isn't recommended on more heavily fished stretches though.

Having said that if I go back through my records I can't see that using pellet has had a noticeable effect on my barbel fishing. I have a feeling that I get fewer blanks using pellet, but it doesn't really show in the records.

I do use flavours when fishing for other fish, but I can't really point to an instance where I'm certain that a particular flavour has worked better than any other. My mate Mick and I have circumstantial evidence that The Source can enhance the effectiveness of pellets and I feel that some flavours can help when chub fishing. I've been using dead maggots for some years now and I always flavour them, but no one flavour obviously works better than another.

Very interesting Sean........thank you for sharing that with us.

Maverick