Yet Another Rip Off?...Flavoured Groundbait

[maverick 7]

Hi guys........I remember the days of the 70's and early 80's and watching my Dad constantly bagging up every time I went fishing with him. His bait was either white crumb or brown crumb and often bread paste kneaded in a clean white cloth for the hook bait.

Sometimes he would use groundbait paste for his hookbait....but it seemed all he needed to have a great days fishing.... was plain bread in some form or another.

He didn't need or want anything else really...

Surely the fish haven't changed THAT much in such a short space of time...so why are we messing around with every different colour of groundbait under the sun?....AND at £3 PLUS for a relatively small bag.

In my humble opinion...just another example of anglers being exploited for more money...for something that wasn't really needed.

I often think that we are our own worst enemies and we often make our sport unnecessarily difficult sometimes. WHY would we introduce baits that will simply make the sport A) More expensive B) Requiring more preparation.

I suppose the answer I will get for that question is...for more fish...but how long will that last before we are back to the point where we were before it was introduced?....because it WILL.

The last time I visited the Swale I fished the way I knew it best...it ALWAYS threw up great results for me on caster and hempseed. I fished this way all day until it got to around 5pm...not a bite. This bloke walks on the bank and tells me I should be fishing Halibut Pellet...so I changed over and had a 7lb fish within 30 minutes.

So now I have to drill all my hookbaits.....make up a load of hair rigs, take longer to put the bait on my rig. All I used to do was pick out 3 or 4 casters, hook them on to my size 10 hook.....and cast in...done....and the results was just as good if not better than they are on the pellet.

An example of a change of bait that was totally and utterly unnecessary in my opinion.

The same applies to flavoured groundbait.....I think it was neither neccessary nor productive for us to introduce this stuff.....

....but what do you think?

Maverick

 

[chefster]

The fish have changed ,they wise up everytime they are caught and they,ve seen it all before! But basically its mans quest to always look for "The Bait" to give the edge!

 

[nicepix]

Maverick , do you have an Uncle Ron? :wh

 

[maverick 7]

The fish have changed ,they wise up everytime they are caught and they,ve seen it all before! But basically its mans quest to always look for "The Bait" to give the edge!

I don't believe that to be true chefster to be honest.....they just see it as food...even THE BAIT.....it's just food to them.

...and anyway....if what you say is true, do you not think they will wise up to that too?....as I said in the opening post.

...and where does sit all stop.

Maverick

---------- Post added at 13:28 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

Maverick , do you have an Uncle Ron? :wh

....meaning what?......

Maverick

 

[chefster]

I don't believe that to be true chefster to be honest.....they just see it as food...even THE BAIT.....it's just food to them.

...and anyway....if what you say is true, do you not think they will wise up to that too?....as I said in the opening post.

...and where does sit all stop.

It does,nt stop, baits and methods are changing all the time ,and this is because the fish wise up-if they just saw it as food with no danger,you,re good old days tactics with breadpaste would still be working,but they,re not!! We have to evolve our methods in order to be successful,thats why we use low diameter lines,small hooks,hair rigs etc!

 

[chav professor]

I like a bit of continental ground bait.. I use a third continental and 2/3's bread crumb. I have a preference for brown crumb - it has more smell.. But since I have 3 carrier bags of white crumb made and given to me by an absolute angling legend .... I shall be using plenty of that.

 

[sam vimes]

Some groundbait that's a bit more fancy than basic crumb probably is a little on the expensive side. That's not to say that it can't be effective.

However, what baffles me is that you are drilling pellets.
Save you self an awful lot of messing around and frustration when they break in two while drilling. Get some pre-drilled/holed. I feed normal pellets and keep the pre-drilled purely for hookers. A bag will last ages.

 

[maverick 7]

I don't believe that to be true chefster to be honest.....they just see it as food...even THE BAIT.....it's just food to them.

...and anyway....if what you say is true, do you not think they will wise up to that too?....as I said in the opening post.

...and where does sit all stop.

It does,nt stop, baits and methods are changing all the time ,and this is because the fish wise up-if they just saw it as food with no danger,you,re good old days tactics with breadpaste would still be working,but they,re not!! We have to evolve our methods in order to be successful,thats why we use low diameter lines,small hooks,hair rigs etc!

You're missing the point chefster.....the fish don't "wise up"....they are still falling for maggots after what...60 years??....and that is because they are still used in abundance.......

They change their feeding habits because we more or less force it onto them .......as anglers we continue to change their diets for them.....by introducing what we think would catch more fish....it may do for a short time but we always get back to the same point at some time in the cycle.

If you walked up and down a fishery where the most prolific bait was ..say meat.....and introduced a fair amount of a new bait every day over a long period of time....say boilies.....it wouldn't be too long before the fish was preferring boilies to the meat.We are the ones that are enforcing the fish to "wise up" as you call it. They are actually simply eating what they more readily recognise as food....and so in this case will move over to the boilies.

....exactly in the same way the barbel have moved over to pellet as opposed to hemp and caster in the Swale....because anglers was introducing it in great numbers as it seemed to work everywhere else....and now the fish easily recognise it as the main source of food....simple and very logical to be honest.

Fish are quite stupid creatures....don't be fooled that they are clever, they can be wary at best but generally do almost everything by instinct.

Maverick

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

I like a bit of continental ground bait.. I use a third continental and 2/3's bread crumb. I have a preference for brown crumb - it has more smell.. But since I have 3 carrier bags of white crumb made and given to me by an absolute angling legend .... I shall be using plenty of that.

Pleased to hear that Chav.....I thought the stuff had long made it's final farewell.

Maverick

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:44 ----------

Some groundbait that's a bit more fancy than basic crumb probably is a little on the expensive side. That's not to say that it can't be effective.

However, what baffles me is that you are drilling pellets.
Save you self an awful lot of messing around and frustration when they break in two while drilling. Get some pre-drilled/holed. I feed normal pellets and keep the pre-drilled purely for hookers. A bag will last ages.

Hi Sam....I hear what you are saying mate BUT....the way I make my barbel rigs is like this. On the hair I tie a pellet band.....so if you look at my hair rigs, instead of a loop there is a rubber ring. I hook the band with my needle and pull it through the hole in the pellet...at this point the elastic is stretching and is at it's thinnest point. When I release the band it expands back to it's normal thickness and grips the inside of the hole of the pellet...so there is no need to faff about with stops to hold the bait on....it holds on all by itself.

The point I am getting to is this......the holes in the pre-drilled pellets are simply too big...and the pellet bands will not grip. I have tried various brands and they all seem to be the same so I drill them myself.

As for the fancy groundbait....I totally agree with you ...of course it is effective because it has long since been the norm for groundbait and the fish recognise it as so.

...but I have a sneaky feeling that if we had stuck to the plain white and brown crumb....we would still be enjoying the same results.

Maverick

 

[chefster]

Going back to my original post Mav,it,s mans quest to find the Utimate bait that will catch more fish than the next guy!

 

[Peter Jacobs]

....meaning what?......

No idea, but; What do you think?



As to the original question, I personally favour Continental mixes way above home made bread crumb for the simple reason that bread groundbait, in its' many different forms, is basically 100% all feed.

Continental mixes (and I've had 2 trips around the Sensas' factory) are a lot less feed, more attractors and and flavorings. I know what I prefer to use to attract fish to my hookbaits rather than feed-off a shoal in my peg.

It served me very well over a decade of matches at club, festivals and international level.

 

[nicepix]

No idea, but; What do you think?



As to the original question, I personally favour Continental mixes way above home made bread crumb for the simple reason that bread groundbait, in its' many different forms, is basically 100% all feed.

Continental mixes (and I've had 2 trips around the Sensas' factory) are a lot less feed, more attractors and and flavorings. I know what I prefer to use to attract fish to my hookbaits rather than feed-off a shoal in my peg.

It served me very well over a decade of matches at club, festivals and international level.

That's my belief in general. I'll use bread or ground grain flour mainly as a carrier along with whatever else is needed whether it be clay, soil or mashed pellets to make it stick together long enough to reach the fish.

For roach and bream I'll flavour the groundbait with maize flour and vanilla, for tench and barbel crushed hemp, and chicken mash for carp along with strawberry extract or molasses. For chub it's cheese flavouring or banana.

The original question is framed very much like a Ron Clay thread in implying that shop-bought flavoured groundbaits are a rip-off. I wonder if Maverick told his customers about his thoughts when they were buying stick float rods, branded clothing or ready made flavoured groundbaits?

For me buying flavoured groundbaits is not a rip-off, no more than buying a frozen pizza or curry spice mix. Sometimes the pro's know how to make a product better and in other instances it is more convenient to buy a ready-made item than make it yourself.

 

[maverick 7]

No idea, but; What do you think?


As to the original question, I personally favour Continental mixes way above home made bread crumb for the simple reason that bread groundbait, in its' many different forms, is basically 100% all feed.

Continental mixes (and I've had 2 trips around the Sensas' factory) are a lot less feed, more attractors and and flavorings. I know what I prefer to use to attract fish to my hookbaits rather than feed-off a shoal in my peg.

It served me very well over a decade of matches at club, festivals and international level.

I think you DO have an idea Peter.......and you KNOW that I do.

I thought I was doing OK on this forum considering I have only been here about a month.....I have put some pretty debateable threads on that has attracted hundreds and hundreds of responses and literally thousands and thousands of views....obviously, it looks like other members have different views of my presence.....never mind.....I've enjoyed it.

I am fairly opinionated...but I don't ignore or degrade other peoples views, I might try to convince them otherwise but never forcefully.

I actually enjoy putting threads forward that I think will generate some interest and debate and instill a bit of life into the forum at the same time.

I enjoy seeing other people enjoying discussing my opinion or my view of certain issues.......favourably or not.

If nicepix sees something there that warrants his obvious and usual derogatory remark about Ron Clay....a man he should show far more respect to.....then, when this thread has finished, I'll simply stop posting and watch everything...... as he mostly does.

As for your flavoured groundbait Peter......I dare say it has served you well over the last 10 years......but the question is, would white and brown crumb served you just as well had coloured and flavoured groundbait never been invented?

Maverick

 

[nicepix]

Maverick, this part of your post makes no sense at all especially for an ex-tackle dealer:

So now I have to drill all my hookbaits.....make up a load of hair rigs, take longer to put the bait on my rig. All I used to do was pick out 3 or 4 casters, hook them on to my size 10 hook.....and cast in...done....and the results was just as good if not better than they are on the pellet.

An example of a change of bait that was totally and utterly unnecessary in my opinion.

The same applies to flavoured groundbait.....I think it was neither neccessary nor productive for us to introduce this stuff.....

....but what do you think?

You seem concerned that others have tried to progress by trying new baits that in your opinion has spoiled your angling. If you are happy to fish the same methods every session then fine, find somewhere where it will work. But you can hardly blame others for trying to better their catch rates by trying new baits and tackle.

I find it strange that an ex-tackle dealer is so down on new methods and equipment. After all, that is what generates new business. You wouldn't make much money just selling a couple of pints of casters and half a stone of white crumb to your regulars every week.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

but the question is, would white and brown crumb served you just as well had coloured and flavoured groundbait never been invented?

That's a wholly rhetorical question inasmuch as it had already been invented.

We used to use cheaper groundbaits and some 'diluted' with crumb for practice sessions and to be honest the results in those sessions were usually not as good as on match days. That in itself was a little illogical as you would normally expect the exact opposite. The same was true when using left-over groundbait that had been frozen for short term storage.

The fact remains that bread is 100% feed value as opposed to a much lesser degree of 'feed' in Continental mixes.

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 ----------

I think you DO have an idea Peter.......and you KNOW that I do

Actually I don't have a clue and I don't know you at all either other than you seem to take things a little too literally.

 

[Keith M]

Going back to my original post Mav,it,s mans quest to find the Utimate bait that will catch more fish than the next guy!

I don't think there will ever be such a magic ultimate bait.

There are so many variables such as PH levels, target species, water temperatures and water clarity etc. etc. and all of these can change a baits effectiveness from water to water.

I don't even think that plain white bread has a lot of feed value; going on the number of birds that ignore it in my garden; although bread with wholegrain seeds in it does get taken quite quickly. But then a bird has more intelligence than an average fish after all .

 

[stillwater blue]

If by flavoured you mean artifical flavoured, then I really can't comment I have never tried one. I'd probably be a hint on the cynical side, as during my carp fishing days the quality of the base mix was far more important than any chemical flavour/smell.

If you mean with natural ingredients, like ground hemp or fishmeal, then flavouring a groundbait can make a massive difference. Certain products seem to be more attractive to certain species than others. For example I'm making a mix for roach, roach seem fond of vanilla and coriander so a groundbait for roach would contain both of those ingredients where as on the natural waters fishmeal seems to bring in carp, bream and tench but is alot less attractive to roach so I would emit fishmeal from the mix. You'll never get a 100% selective mix, certain ingredients appeal to everything and certain ingredients are worth adding for functionality as well as attraction but you can certainly tweak it in you favour IMO.

Personally I do think £3-4 for a bag of groundbait is a rip off. You can happily make a very good conti mix at home less than for half that price, it's not rocket science. As you've made it you know what's in it and how to tweak it to suit various conditions. Using yoof speak, it's an edge init!

Now, is it just me or is a dark yellow mix a particularly good colour for bream?

 

[chav professor]

If by flavoured you mean artifical flavoured, then I really can't comment I have never tried one. I'd probably be a hint on the cynical side, as during my carp fishing days the quality of the base mix was far more important than any chemical flavour/smell.

There are some much better thought out attractants made from the real thing... Could check this stuff out... SAC™ juice - The World's-first 'Glycerite' liquid bait additive!

 

[chefster]

maverick,i dont see how you think i,m missing the point,like you just said fish still eat maggots etc,new baits and methods will keep on developing,i personally use a variety of baits throughout the season,and have never considered additives to groundbait a rip off,basically if you want to catch successfully you have to be prepared to use what is going to catch,or sit there with youre principles watching everyone else bagging up!!

 

[maverick 7]

Maverick, this part of your post makes no sense at all especially for an ex-tackle dealer:



You seem concerned that others have tried to progress by trying new baits that in your opinion has spoiled your angling. If you are happy to fish the same methods every session then fine, find somewhere where it will work. But you can hardly blame others for trying to better their catch rates by trying new baits and tackle.

I find it strange that an ex-tackle dealer is so down on new methods and equipment. After all, that is what generates new business. You wouldn't make much money just selling a couple of pints of casters and half a stone of white crumb to your regulars every week.[/QUOTE]

Why are you assuming what I think?...... you know absolutely nothing about me and on the evidence of your posts.......even less about fishing.

Concerned....I am not the merest morsel concerned. Spoiled.....nothing on Gods earth could spoil a days fishing for me my friend. Blame...do you really know what this thread is about?

The whole next paragraph...don't talk about stuff you clearly know nothing about.

...and by the way...you should pay Ron Clay a little more respect for what he has achieved...he has forgotten more about fishing than YOU will ever know.

Maverick

 

[chefster]

Hey Maverick,chill out mate,dont let people wind you up,i know its hard but its only a forum mate KEEP POSTING!!