sam vimes
Well-known member
I've little doubt that daylight hours play a part as a spawning trigger for all fish. However, I don't believe that would be in complete isolation from the influence of water temperatures.
Closed season U-Turn
- Thread starter tiinker
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nicepix
Well-known member
Given that various species of coarse fish spawn from February to July I think that can be taken as read Sam.
Ray Wood 1
Well-known member
Not sure I can understand any of that Steve. I do not think for one moment that Joe Public perceive anglers as caring because there is a close season on rivers. I think most of them perceive us as nut cases and see angling as a worm at one end and a fool at the other. I find your fifth paragraph both confusing and contradictory given you now appear to be in the camp of change regarding the rivers close season.
The close season in it's current form hardly seems to have impacted negatively on river fishing or on it’s survival. So keeping it in it's current form just how do you see it impacting negatively on rivers fishing survival as a whole in the future?
Why wait until your next diary to expand and discuss your concerns on the survival of river fishing or your apparent desire to alter things? As this thread has drawn so many responses I am sure most would want you to expand on your views now.
Ray
no-one in particular
Well-known member
Having taken water temperatures for many years I have noticed my catches take a big hike up and peak for the year in the 56-60f range and then they drop a fair bit in the 61-65f range. Then they peak again in the 66-69f range. I have always taken this drop as an indication of spawning as I could think of no other reason for it. This occurs mainly in May-Jun-Jul. It does not include Dace or Barbel as I rarely catch them these days but does include most of the regular freshwater species-bream, Rudd, roach etc..I don't know if light levels play a part but, my feeling it is largely temperature driven
I have quite a few flowers out a month early and I saw a male blackbird with a fully fledged young one two days ago. It was brown and speckled not, like the female which is usually smooth and brown. I am pretty sure it was a young bird. This meant it must have nested 6 weeks ago or something like that. I was very surprised by this. This must be mainly temperature driven. I don't know if its the same for fish however, I imagine it is going on the evidence.
I have quite a few flowers out a month early and I saw a male blackbird with a fully fledged young one two days ago. It was brown and speckled not, like the female which is usually smooth and brown. I am pretty sure it was a young bird. This meant it must have nested 6 weeks ago or something like that. I was very surprised by this. This must be mainly temperature driven. I don't know if its the same for fish however, I imagine it is going on the evidence.
In answer to reporting a rare species or keeping it to yourself.
As someone who spent many years of my working life managing large areas of countryside, lakes and rivers there is one question must be asked before you start phoning anyone.
That question is "why is it there"?
If the species is a windblown bird seeking refuge, rest and food then my advice is to keep it to yourself.
If its a indigenous reptile or mammal it has arrived because the location satisfies its requirements, which were present with anglers using the same location before it arrived, and the same can be said for rare plants.
If its an invertebrate species a little habitat management can (sometimes) increase the population or establish a stronghold, but equally often doing nothing can achieve similar results.
Nature conservation is not an exact science whatever anyone may tell you, factor in human behaviour and changing weather patterns and you can see why doing nothing is often the best policy, at least until a healthy population has been established.
If something must be reported first ensure you have the full consent of the Landowner or their representative.
The next step should be a call the your regional offices of Natural England requesting to speak to the scientist responsible for your County, however be aware the NE is undergoing considerable restructuring as I write, so your second line of communication should be your County Wildlife Trust.
However before you say anything clearly establish EXACTLY who your speaking to and their job title, and NEVER EVER reveal the precise location!
If the species is sufficiently 'rare' a site visit will be quickly requested, you should arrange to meet well away from the exact location and only when you have established exactly who your speaking to on the day AND what action they might take should it be sufficiently 'rare' should the precise location be revealed.
Lastly DO NOT tell anyone who is an amateur naturalist, whatever they may say to support their confidentiality, amateurs cannot be trusted simply because they are responsible to know-one but themselves and often have very strong species based allegencies.
.
As someone who spent many years of my working life managing large areas of countryside, lakes and rivers there is one question must be asked before you start phoning anyone.
That question is "why is it there"?
If the species is a windblown bird seeking refuge, rest and food then my advice is to keep it to yourself.
If its a indigenous reptile or mammal it has arrived because the location satisfies its requirements, which were present with anglers using the same location before it arrived, and the same can be said for rare plants.
If its an invertebrate species a little habitat management can (sometimes) increase the population or establish a stronghold, but equally often doing nothing can achieve similar results.
Nature conservation is not an exact science whatever anyone may tell you, factor in human behaviour and changing weather patterns and you can see why doing nothing is often the best policy, at least until a healthy population has been established.
If something must be reported first ensure you have the full consent of the Landowner or their representative.
The next step should be a call the your regional offices of Natural England requesting to speak to the scientist responsible for your County, however be aware the NE is undergoing considerable restructuring as I write, so your second line of communication should be your County Wildlife Trust.
However before you say anything clearly establish EXACTLY who your speaking to and their job title, and NEVER EVER reveal the precise location!
If the species is sufficiently 'rare' a site visit will be quickly requested, you should arrange to meet well away from the exact location and only when you have established exactly who your speaking to on the day AND what action they might take should it be sufficiently 'rare' should the precise location be revealed.
Lastly DO NOT tell anyone who is an amateur naturalist, whatever they may say to support their confidentiality, amateurs cannot be trusted simply because they are responsible to know-one but themselves and often have very strong species based allegencies.
.
richiekelly
Well-known member
Nature conservation is not an exact science whatever anyone may tell you, factor in human behaviour and changing weather patterns and you can see why doing nothing is often the best policy, at least until a healthy population has been established.
Absolutely correct, however, in the case of insects (that is what started this) an expert must be used to identify the species correctly, an angler may "think" they have seen a rare species but they are most likely to not be an expert.
Nature seems to have done a pretty good job of the environment for the last however many years, its usually when man interferes that things go wrong, yes sometimes a species will disappear from an area that is not interfered with but that is a natural progression within nature.
By not reporting the finding an expert cannot identify the insect, not reporting for selfish reasons may further endanger a possibly already endangered species as the habitat can easily be damaged by anglers doing "improvements" as they see it to the area.
Your point about making sure the person you speak to and meet to show them the site is well taken.
Absolutely correct, however, in the case of insects (that is what started this) an expert must be used to identify the species correctly, an angler may "think" they have seen a rare species but they are most likely to not be an expert.
Nature seems to have done a pretty good job of the environment for the last however many years, its usually when man interferes that things go wrong, yes sometimes a species will disappear from an area that is not interfered with but that is a natural progression within nature.
By not reporting the finding an expert cannot identify the insect, not reporting for selfish reasons may further endanger a possibly already endangered species as the habitat can easily be damaged by anglers doing "improvements" as they see it to the area.
Your point about making sure the person you speak to and meet to show them the site is well taken.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
Mick the implication seems to be doing nothing is an option depending on how rare and what the species is , forgive me if I have misinterpreted that , but doesn't a SSSI prevent not just angling , during parts of the year , but other activities too and have an affect on future planning permission ?
richiekelly
Well-known member
As far as I have read NE do recognise that angling can in some instances be beneficial to these sites, reporting pollution being among the benefits, they do however say that some angling practices are detrimental to some sites, unsuitable stockings, removal of weed and dead trees, disturbance of bankside vegetation are some of the things mentioned.
Most of us are not experts certainly not myself (although some may think of themselves as that) when it comes to knowing what needs to be done to protect the environment that endangered species have chosen to live in. Its I because of this that I believe that if anyone thinks they have found an endangered or rare species the correct people must be notified.
Once notified the species can be identified, if a mistake has been made by the identifier no harm has been done, if as has been suggested on here no report is made (something I view as entirely selfish) then who knows what damage could be done? could it lead to an actual extinction of a species?
Angling is also recognised by NE as beneficial not only to the environment but also to the individual, getting youngsters into the countryside and not only angling but learning about nature at the same time.
There are a number of SSSI sites that do allow angling some with restrictions, other sites do not, whether it is or not is down to those that know what is needed to keep safe whatever it is that caused the site to become an SSSI, only people with sufficient knowledge IMO can do that and not to report something because it might (and it might not) affect angling is wrong.
While reading I have been quite impressed with what NE say about angling on paper, whether that is the thoughts of all within NE mmmmmmmmmm?
Most of us are not experts certainly not myself (although some may think of themselves as that) when it comes to knowing what needs to be done to protect the environment that endangered species have chosen to live in. Its I because of this that I believe that if anyone thinks they have found an endangered or rare species the correct people must be notified.
Once notified the species can be identified, if a mistake has been made by the identifier no harm has been done, if as has been suggested on here no report is made (something I view as entirely selfish) then who knows what damage could be done? could it lead to an actual extinction of a species?
Angling is also recognised by NE as beneficial not only to the environment but also to the individual, getting youngsters into the countryside and not only angling but learning about nature at the same time.
There are a number of SSSI sites that do allow angling some with restrictions, other sites do not, whether it is or not is down to those that know what is needed to keep safe whatever it is that caused the site to become an SSSI, only people with sufficient knowledge IMO can do that and not to report something because it might (and it might not) affect angling is wrong.
While reading I have been quite impressed with what NE say about angling on paper, whether that is the thoughts of all within NE mmmmmmmmmm?
Ray Wood 1
Well-known member
Having now read Steve pope's comments in the Angling Times along with those of Des Taylor I can only come to one conclusion. And that conclusion is that the change is based on commercial gain and nothing else.
Contrary to Steve's view that we as anglers are seen to care this move will only show Joe Public that money and self gain come before all else even within a sport pass time. Perhaps I am a cynic as I cannot see that anglers who earn a living by guiding on rivers are in the least concerned about tackle shops. If a tackle shop goes to the wall how on earth will it affect the future survival of river fishing, the rivers will still be there won't they? There is clearly an agenda behind this call for change, just what that agenda is for both members of FM and readers of the angling press to make their own minds up on.
Commercial driven interests lost us the blanket close season and the same forces will lose us the rivers close season. It now appears that those commercial interests have been set in motion. Don’t get me wrong I have nothing against anyone earning a living and I feel sorry for those who have been affected by the floods.My deepest sympathy goes to those who have lost everything and seen their homes ruined and face the same thing happening again and again.
But let those calling for change at least be honest that the changes they are calling for will also benefit their own interests.
Steve should be careful of what he wishes for, calling for change and indicating his softening on the close season may just back fire on him and see the close season his has campaigned to preserve lost forever.
Personally I cannot see any argument Steve has made or may make in his next dairy for the change convincing me that he or change are right.
Regards
Ray
Contrary to Steve's view that we as anglers are seen to care this move will only show Joe Public that money and self gain come before all else even within a sport pass time. Perhaps I am a cynic as I cannot see that anglers who earn a living by guiding on rivers are in the least concerned about tackle shops. If a tackle shop goes to the wall how on earth will it affect the future survival of river fishing, the rivers will still be there won't they? There is clearly an agenda behind this call for change, just what that agenda is for both members of FM and readers of the angling press to make their own minds up on.
Commercial driven interests lost us the blanket close season and the same forces will lose us the rivers close season. It now appears that those commercial interests have been set in motion. Don’t get me wrong I have nothing against anyone earning a living and I feel sorry for those who have been affected by the floods.My deepest sympathy goes to those who have lost everything and seen their homes ruined and face the same thing happening again and again.
But let those calling for change at least be honest that the changes they are calling for will also benefit their own interests.
Steve should be careful of what he wishes for, calling for change and indicating his softening on the close season may just back fire on him and see the close season his has campaigned to preserve lost forever.
Personally I cannot see any argument Steve has made or may make in his next dairy for the change convincing me that he or change are right.
Regards
Ray
I stil think it would be far better to wait and see what the new Diary piece says before we all get ahead of ourselves on this issue.
As most people on here know I am wholly in favour of the Close Season on our rivers but let's give Steve, and others, their chance to say their piece before poeple go jumping all over him.
Okay?
As most people on here know I am wholly in favour of the Close Season on our rivers but let's give Steve, and others, their chance to say their piece before poeple go jumping all over him.
Okay?
richiekelly
Well-known member
Can I ask what academic qualifications these people have to decide that this is the way forward?
Ray Wood 1
Well-known member
Peter,
No one is jumping on anyone. Steve is calling for change he has his reasons for this call and they must surely already be formed and clear in his mind so why ask us to wait for his next diary?
If he cannot come on here now and elaborate and expand his views and clarify his reasons for calling for these changes in a National Angling Publication perhaps he is on shaky ground. The topic is hot right now and the spark was set by Steve himself so again why the need for waiting?
Kind regards
Ray
No one is jumping on anyone. Steve is calling for change he has his reasons for this call and they must surely already be formed and clear in his mind so why ask us to wait for his next diary?
If he cannot come on here now and elaborate and expand his views and clarify his reasons for calling for these changes in a National Angling Publication perhaps he is on shaky ground. The topic is hot right now and the spark was set by Steve himself so again why the need for waiting?
Kind regards
Ray
. . . and as Steve said, it is all in his next Diary piece.
Now the Editorial staff have regular patterns for publishing pieces here on FM and Steve's Diary piece is a monthly item.
As such I dont think it is up to Steve as to when it is published, so it really has nothing to do with the voracity or accuracy of his piece, but simply down to timing.
Lord Paul of Sheffield
Well-known member
people do change their views from tiem to time, ok some might be for personal reasons but others might have just changed their minds
Ray Wood 1
Well-known member
Peter,
I fully understand publishing dates and the timing FM editorial staff work to. I was not asking for FM to publish his next diary now. I am sure that his views and the changes he is asking for were not formed over night and as I said they must be clear in his mind. Personally I see no need for any delay in him clarifying things, but of course that is his right.
Personally if I thought something I had honestly believed in for decades was so wrong and so harmful to river fishing and it’s long term survival I would be shouting from the roof tops to all who were ready to listen and NOT waiting.
Kind regards
Ray
Hi Benny,
Yes doing nothing is an option, how rare a species is can be dependant on many factors and quite often a species can be locally frequent but nationally rare.
A site having SSSI designation does not prevent angling and many SSSI's are regularly fished by anglers (any many SSSi's also have the higher European designation of Special Area of Conservation).
For example a southern chalkstream (most of which are SAC's) can be flyfished on a beat basis (one angler per beat per day) at the most sensitive times of the year but can accomodated quite a number of coarse anglers during the winter months when many of the sites important species are dormant.
Equally a lake surrounded by suitable habitat could easily support, say, a thriving population of Doormice which will happily coexist alongside the regular presence of anglers, providing their habitat was sensitivly managed.
In my experience anglers can be very benificial to a site, they are not blind to what is around them and often notice an unusual species simply because they regularly see that which is common.
The ability to notice the unusual is exactly how most rare species are discovered, and certainly not by a scientist wandering around with a lens, binoculars and a rucksack full of reference books.
All of us should remember that no UK wide baseline study (full species survey) has ever been undertaken, so if you see something unusual, take a photograph and get it identified, who knows you could even discover a totally new species.
.