Carp, maybe not so invasive after all.

[sam vimes]

This might disappoint the carp haters, but they've found evidence of carp in the Fens in the bronze age (2500-600BC).

BBC iPlayer - Digging for Britain - Series 3: 1. East

The relevant piece starts at 3min 30ish. The specific mention of carp, along with pike, perch and smelt is at 4min 20. The whole piece runs until just short of 15min.

 

[The fishing coach]

I think that the reference to carp was a "dumbing down" of the word cyprinids, the scientific word for members of the carp familly, because whilst he mentions pike, perch and smelt specifically (not cyprinids), he makes no mention of roach, chub, tench or bream which are cyprinids and would certainly have been present.

 

[thecrow]

Industrial fishing was mentioned, could this have been early fish farming? if it was it could be that only fish that were worth eating were found and that Carp were one of the fish that were eaten, others such as Bream, Roach and Tench maybe are not as tasty and were not farmed.

 

[steve2]

The history of carp farming in this country seems to start around the 1300. These would have been the long lean wild carp, not the commons and mirrors we have today. Before then other freshwater fish were eaten, pike, bream and tench being some of the favourites. They still are in many countries including this one if all you read is true.
Carp have only really become invasive in the past 20 years or so due to their overstocking and escaping into other waters after floods.

 

[The bad one]

The history of carp farming in this country seems to start around the 1300. These would have been the long lean wild carp, not the commons and mirrors we have today. Before then other freshwater fish were eaten, pike, bream and tench being some of the favourites. They still are in many countries including this one if all you read is true.
Carp have only really become invasive in the past 20 years or so due to their overstocking and escaping into other waters after floods.

It might be a bit early than that Steve, my club controls a water that has a 1000 year document history held by the family that owns the estate of carp (wildies) being present in it's mere and use of farming and harvesting them in it. Agree coarse fish of all kinds have been a source of protein in the UK for many, many millennia

 

[barbelboi]

That’s interesting Phil as I believe all previously know records point to the mid 14th century at the earliest. There are records that show prior to this time that carp were imported from France for banquets, social occasions, etc.

The Romans were responsible for the introduction of carp into Italy and many other colonies from the Danube area. The United Kingdom was not included this initial expansion of the carps territory. Following the decline of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Monastic life of the early Christians the carp became a domesticated food fish of the monks. During this period the first selective breeding took place to try and improve the carp’s growth rate.

Records suggest that carp were present in England from the late fourteenth century, and that by the I53O's they seem well established and much sought after. Despite extensive searches historians have been unable to find reference to carp being kept in ponds in England before c1350. Research has shown that the most popular freshwater fish before this date were bream and pike, particularly on the royal table, where it is thought contemporary trends would be mirrored.

 

[maggot_dangler]

This might disappoint the carp haters, but they've found evidence of carp in the Fens in the bronze age (2500-600BC).

BBC iPlayer - Digging for Britain - Series 3: 1. East

The relevant piece starts at 3min 30ish. The specific mention of carp, along with pike, perch and smelt is at 4min 20. The whole piece runs until just short of 15min.

As has been stated not Carp as we know them but more likely cyprinids, Commons mirrors ghosts ect ect are invaders most certainly brought over by Monks as a food source .

PG ..

 

[nicepix]

That’s interesting Phil as I believe all previously know records point to the mid 14th century at the earliest. There are records that show prior to this time that carp were imported from France for banquets, social occasions, etc.

The Romans were responsible for the introduction of carp into Italy and many other colonies from the Danube area. The United Kingdom was not included this initial expansion of the carps territory. Following the decline of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Monastic life of the early Christians the carp became a domesticated food fish of the monks. During this period the first selective breeding took place to try and improve the carp’s growth rate.

Records suggest that carp were present in England from the late fourteenth century, and that by the I53O's they seem well established and much sought after. Despite extensive searches historians have been unable to find reference to carp being kept in ponds in England before c1350. Research has shown that the most popular freshwater fish before this date were bream and pike, particularly on the royal table, where it is thought contemporary trends would be mirrored.

I'm puzzled by this too Jerry. as you say, the written records regarding carp commence around 1340 but there are several unanswered questions. Monasteries pre-date 1340 by at least a hundred years suggesting that monks were present much earlier than the carp farming records began. Almost 200 years in some cases. We also know that Romans introduced carp into their homeland and also conquered areas such as France where many monks originated. And there are records of inland fisheries in the Domesday Book suggesting that some form of fish farming or harvesting took place in the Anglo-Saxon period.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Romans introduced them along with rabbits and snails. After all, it would have made perfect sense. It is what they did. After the Roman period the Dark Age people didn't have the nous or will for farming and I could see carp becoming extinct or nearly extinct.

Regards the records of pike and other fish on the royal table it might be a case of rarity being desirable. If truffles were a quid a kilo nobody would bother with them. Farmed carp are easy to harvest. Pike less so.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[barbelboi]

Yes, it's all a bit if or but Clive - if the Romans did in fact introduce carp during their occupation years one would assume that there would be a lot more hard evidence from excavations than one skeleton which was attributed to a Roman 'bigwig's' pet..?

 

[sam vimes]

If it's fair to assume that the word carp has been used as a substitute for cyprinid, then it might suggest that these archeologists aren't that bothered by the distinctions. If that's the case, I doubt that sifting through fish remains to discern roughly when carp were introduced to Britain will be high on their priorities.

 

[nicepix]

Yes, it's all a bit if or but Clive - if the Romans did in fact introduce carp during their occupation years one would assume that there would be a lot more hard evidence from excavations than one skeleton which was attributed to a Roman 'bigwig's' pet..?

I agree Jerry. They have found rabbit bones in a post Roman meal that suggests that they were being farmed and butchered well before the Norman invasion. The problems with the period between the Romans leaving and the Normans coming is that there is little written down on that sort of subject. Only really the Saxon Chronicles to go on. Now if the Venerable Bede had been an angler...........

 

[The bad one]

I'm puzzled by this too Jerry. as you say, the written records regarding carp commence around 1340 but there are several unanswered questions. Monasteries pre-date 1340 by at least a hundred years suggesting that monks were present much earlier than the carp farming records began. Almost 200 years in some cases. We also know that Romans introduced carp into their homeland and also conquered areas such as France where many monks originated. And there are records of inland fisheries in the Domesday Book suggesting that some form of fish farming or harvesting took place in the Anglo-Saxon period.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Romans introduced them along with rabbits and snails. After all, it would have made perfect sense. It is what they did. After the Roman period the Dark Age people didn't have the nous or will for farming and I could see carp becoming extinct or nearly extinct.

Regards the records of pike and other fish on the royal table it might be a case of rarity being desirable. If truffles were a quid a kilo nobody would bother with them. Farmed carp are easy to harvest. Pike less so.

Just my two cents worth.

Quite Clive, the water, a smallish natural mere, dating back to it's formation at the end of the Ice age was stocked and framed for its carp, by the owning family (De Sandford's) from 1060. The family is also listed in the Doomsday Book as Nobles living on the Estate. The Historic records show that a fish pond was given by the then De Sandford descendant to his son as a wedding present in 1200. The estate contains several now small ponds on it from that time. It's likely one of these was the wedding gift to the son.
The Estate was sold in the mid 1500s to the present family who's descendants still own it and hold the written records of both families. On the current owning family's website it lists a 1000 years of carp presence in the mere based on the records they hold.

 

[Titus]

There was so much trade going on in the eastern world before written records began it would not surprise me in the slightest if carp made their way to Europe, in the form of salt fish, and then on to Britain way before the roman invasion. Could be a nice research project there for someone working towards a degree.
I wouldn't mind betting that the basements of certain museums are bursting at the seams with fish bones just waiting for someone to categorise them properly.

 

[nicepix]

With DNA analysing becoming ever more affordable there has never been a better time to unlock these sort of puzzles.

 

[bennygesserit]

All the stuff I have found so far on the web about must farm quarry says carp I suppose for a definitive ( and interesting ) answer someone could contact

Department of Archaeology, University of Cambridge
Downing Street, Cambridge, CB2 3DZ

TEL (01223) 327802 FAX (01223) 314686
Email: cauadmin@arch.cam.ac.uk

 

[nicepix]

I wouldn't mind betting that the basements of certain museums are bursting at the seams with fish bones just waiting for someone to categorise them properly.

Where is Austin Wheeler when you need him?

 

[The bad one]

Where is Austin Wheeler when you need him?

Don't know where "Austin" Wheeler is, but I do know where Alwyne Wheeler is? He's cosmic fishing since 2005
Alwyne Wheeler 5 October 1929–19 June 2005 - Crimmen - 2006 - Journal of Fish Biology - Wiley Online Library

 

[nicepix]

Don't know where "Austin" Wheeler is, but I do know where Alwyne Wheeler is? He's cosmic fishing since 2005
Alwyne Wheeler 5 October 1929–19 June 2005 - Crimmen - 2006 - Journal of Fish Biology - Wiley Online Library

That's him. My memory

He was the man who everyone deferred to.