bennygesserit
Well-known member
They already do restock waters Wes.
What license money is spent that isn't on fishing ? Water quality relates to fishing or do you want your waters re-stocked isn't that what muddy puddles are ?
Otters?
- Thread starter robertroach
- Start date
They already do restock waters Wes.
What license money is spent that isn't on fishing ? Water quality relates to fishing or do you want your waters re-stocked isn't that what muddy puddles are ?
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
On the upper Stour, which is where the original post was about, and taking the upper Stour as upstream of Wimborne so technically the middle Stour as well, the first artificial holt for the otters went in about 1980 at Child Okeford. There were mink back then from a nearby mink farm, but that closed some years ago and mink are very rare if not non existent. It's not hard to find evidence of otters; I last had one in my swim in March. Cormorants have wiped out most of the dace and roach between Blandford and Wimborne though a few isolated shoals hang on. Above Blandford the cormorants have an impact - hard to find roach over 8oz though some and dace far less than before. Minnows that were an incredible pest until the mid 80s are long gone. There were two serious silage pollutions in 85 and another in the early 2000s, all in the Sturminster Newton area but covering around 5 miles and some major restockings of roach and bream since. Old fish are rare but some decent chub to 4lbs, occasionally 5 or 6lbs, and plenty of small ones. A well-balanced river? Not unless the cormorants are sorted out as they seem to crop the roach.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
now I would see cormorant as vermin , that should be culled , they are not a predator that establishes territory as I understand it, so they do not spread themselves out or limit themselves naturally.
More roach = far less barbel taken by otters IMO.
wes79
Well-known member
Bureaucracy, putting Salmon before other fish, putting the Environment before the Environment......producing F1's that are supposed to be Crucian Carp......this is the EA we are talking about.
Restocking to feed the Otters or to artificially accelerate fish populations for human leisure activities that Otters will benefit from?
Same with Cormorants, stop re-stocking (or putting on a buffet using EA license donations) and watch their numbers decline, but that is not conducive to club memberships being maintained or ......money hasn't stopped talking.
I'ts a simple math imho, regardless of what I want.
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bennygesserit
Well-known member
i dont understand you - sorry
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Above Blandford barbel are just about non existent. There have been stockings on the middle Stour though I don't know if they are thriving. Very few anglers fish the middle Stour now.
wes79
Well-known member
Why restock a river when a restocking ensures the predator (Otter) gains further succession?
Is it just me that thinks this is easily dealt with = man taking a step back and giving the "Environment" a chance to balance out.
Cormorants, now Otters, was Crayfish, before that it was the Industrial revolution, global warming (nothing about the Ozone layer now though), habitat destruction......its all man made, man following mans instructions and making school boy errors.
Otters, It's only a problem in the eyes of a man, a man made problem either way you look at it, either man is holding his fellow man back from taking the obvious action, call it authority (we know best pay us), nanny state or whatever or man paying men to do a job and making problems off the back of it and crying to each other instead of just getting the job done.
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maggot_dangler
Well-known member
I will say it once again Otters are an Species that are both native and indigenous to the country yet all people are bothered about is kill the otter .
If people want to get their undies in a tiz over something try Carp a non native invader that causes untold damage and harm to any waters it is introduced to yet no one get all upperty about them or if not carp then hows about Signal Cray fish yeat another non native harmfull and unwanted invader yet no one get on a line about them in all probablilty far more damaging to the fish population than a few Otters .
PG ..
no-one in particular
Well-known member
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bennygesserit
Well-known member
no-one in particular
Well-known member
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thecrow
Well-known member
Because imo these reintroductions had far more to do with making those involved feel good than it ever was about the Otter, numbers were increasing naturally and was imo controlled by the food available in the rivers, shame the do gooders couldn't have left well alone.
no-one in particular
Well-known member
Had another go at this Benny, if the 68 otters bred in succession twice each year one after the other and then stopped breeding after 2 years, the population would double to 136 and then stay at that for 10 years and forever more. You would double the populating and then keep halving it again each year. Of course that would not happen in reality but, that's what the maths say (I think-eek).
The 68 otters would produce 68 in the first year making it 136. Those 136 would produce 136 otters in the second year. But then the first 68 otters would stop breeding in the third year leaving 68 to breed in that year who would produce 68 leaving 136 to breed in the fourth year. This cycle would continue infinitely.
best I could do.
Ditto Crow and its a obsession Benny because its at the heart of the otter problem and many future problems..
The 68 otters would produce 68 in the first year making it 136. Those 136 would produce 136 otters in the second year. But then the first 68 otters would stop breeding in the third year leaving 68 to breed in that year who would produce 68 leaving 136 to breed in the fourth year. This cycle would continue infinitely.
best I could do.
Ditto Crow and its a obsession Benny because its at the heart of the otter problem and many future problems..
bennygesserit
Well-known member
no-one in particular
Well-known member
[QUOTE=bennygesserit;
they only breed every two years Mark:-
The bas****s.
they only breed every two years Mark:-
The bas****s.
Caught 2 eels last time out. Last night in fact. Been seeing a few more than in the past 4/5 years. If the eel is rebounding maybe otters will relearn to hunt for their favourite meal. Lovely and fatty and full of calories.
For my part I don't want to be killing creatures that I'm not gonna eat.
For my part I don't want to be killing creatures that I'm not gonna eat.
thecrow
Well-known member
Control doesn't have to mean killing, contraception would work although the effects would not be immediate.
robertroach
Well-known member
Maybe it would be a good idea to have condoms available free to otters via waterside dispensing machines.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
http://www.thepredationactiongroup.co.uk/images/EA_otter_survey_oct10.pdf
this is a very detailed explanation of how otter population surveys are completed plus it is the population survey by the EA for 2010. What might be of interest is to look for the details for your own local river , plus further down some general comments and information for instance
When considering the possible impact of introduced otters it should be noted that less than
230 individuals of this native species are known ever to have been released in England
and Wales. In contrast, in 2009 alone, fishery owners and managers applied to the
Environment Agency for consent to introduce 13.6 million fish into waters in England and
Wales (C. Eade, pers. comm.) although not all of these will actually have been introduced.
Many of these will be of non-native species.
---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------
Another excerpt worth reading with suggestions that otter predation is actually good for fish population citing the Wye which has , I believe , a substantial otter population
The impact of otter predation remains a very topical issue with discussions taking place
between the Environment Agency, Natural England and representatives of the Angling
Trust to address the concerns, explore the facts and identify the underlying factors which
may be affecting river fisheries. It is clear that the concerns about possible otter impacts
on river fisheries differ from those about stillwaters and require a different set of
responses. For river fisheries, the focus has primarily been on impacts on specimen fish,
particularly chub and barbel which are vulnerable to otter predation. On a number of
lowland rivers in England there has been a trend over the last two decades towards
increasing size and dominance of specimen fish combined with some evidence of poor
recruitment and a skewed age structure of fish populations as a result. An increase in
large specimen fish may be symptomatic of a wider problem of poor recruitment caused by
factors such as poor habitat (often a result of past river engineering), the impact of water
quality on egg survival and in some areas the impact of signal crayfish.
The absence of otters for 30-50 years from some rivers may have contributed to the
change in fish communities; once fish become a certain size they have few if any effective
predators in England other than otters. Without otters they continue to grow subject to
other environmental and biological constraints. The presence of large specimen fish may
also be a factor in poor recruitment and subsequent senility of fish populations, due to
suppression of con-specifics. The complexity of the relationships and ecological
responses is increased by major improvements in water quality, more sensitive river
management, and the manipulation of fish stocks by introductions, removals and artificial
feeding.
It is quite likely that in skewed fish populations dominated by large specimen fish,
predation by otters may initiate a return to a more balanced and sustainable age structure.
There is a clear link between those rivers which were without otters for a long period and
those generating concerns about impacts on specimen fish. Those rivers which had otters
present throughout the period of decline or where otters returned quickly, generate few, if
any, complaints and many have thriving and diverse fisheries. An example is the River
Wye in Herefordshire where the otter population appears to have reached carrying
capacity but the river is regarded as one of the ‘finest pleasure fishing destinations’ in
England (Anglers Mail, 2010; Angling Times, 2010 A; Angling Times, 2010 B). Clearly
good pleasure or match fishing is not incompatible with good otter population. Of ‘the top
50 rivers to fish’ listed in Angling Times (Angling Times 2010 A), 42 have otters present,
many, as on the Wye, with otters at or close to carrying capacity. Similarly in both Ireland
and large areas of Scotland otter populations remained at carrying capacity throughout the
period of decline and recovery in England but the rivers in these countries have remained
prime fishing destinations (Jones, 2009; Jones, 2010; Grigorjevs, 2010).
The return of otters to many rivers raises the issue of their influence on fish population
dynamics in lowland river systems, and also how fish behaviour may respond to the
presence of otters to influence perceptions of abundance. It may be necessary to find
measures to reduce or mitigate possible impacts on fisheries and to predict the likely
responses and future structure of fish populations in response to a return to the historical
norm of otter predation. We need to take a balanced approach to fishery management
and to understand the important place that otters have in our freshwater environment and
the special affection by the public in Britain.
The most extreme response to the conflict of interest between otters and specimen
anglers has been to call for culls and the translocation of problem otters (Whitehead, 2010;
Stones, 2010). Many of these calls are based on a belief that otters somehow have
exceeded ‘natural’ carrying capacity as a result of continuing introductions. In fact less
than 250 otters have ever been released in Britain and the last introduction of captive bred
otters was by the Otter Trust into the upper Thames in 1999. None of the introduced
otters could still be alive and all otters in England today are the result of natural breeding in
the wild, mainly from naturally recovering otter populations but also from the offspring of
introduced individuals.
It is important to remember that these concerns are mainly restricted to a sector of the
angling community (stillwater and some river specimen fishermen) and only to a proportion
of those. Many fishery managers, river keepers and anglers do not foresee the ultimate
demise of fish populations (as it is often characterised) as a result of the recovery and
strengthening of otter populations. Food supply, and its relative availability, will be the
ultimate factor in determining otter density in England as elsewhere but territoriality will
serve to limit numbers within the constraints of food supply. Other environmental
requirements such as secure breeding sites are unlikely to be limiting given the wide range
of habitats which otters are now exploiting. Mortality on roads and in illegally-set fish traps
(both growing trends) might cause temporary lowering of otter populations but such
mortality is likely to replace natural mortality rather than add to it.
Otters have a catholic diet and will exploit whatever fish species are available. It is
possible that the lack of eels on some of our rivers now provides them with a slightly
narrower choice of prey than they would have had in the past but this may be
compensated for by an increased biomass of other species (including non-native species
such as common carp and signal crayfish). The biomass of fish available to them on
English rivers may be no less than prior to their decline and is in any case far higher than
that in some Scottish rivers which have retained good otter populations (Brazier & Mathias,
2001; Kruuk 1995). In some cases where signal crayfish have replaced the biomass of
species previously unavailable (to otters) in the form of smaller invertebrates, the available
biomass may have increased substantially. However the fish biomass on a number of
rivers is now re-distributed into larger specimen fish which increases the likelihood of more
noticeable impacts in the short term until a more natural fish population is restored. New
stillwaters have also increased the prey biomass available still further. However as top
predators, otters will regulate their own density through territorial behaviour and the food
resources available. The concept of ‘over-capacity’ would appear to have little ecological
merit. This will not satisfy the concerns of those who see their specimen waters affected
and their favourite fish partly eaten on the riverbank. We need a better understanding of
what is influencing fish population structure on those rivers which appear to be
‘unbalanced’. There is also a significant challenge to both statutory agencies and
conservationists on the one hand, and angling interests on the other, to consider what the
future of specimen fisheries in the UK could and should be like in the future.
Unless all parties accept that fish must take their chances in the environment like
everything else, and that otters provide part of the backdrop of natural hazards with which
any fish is faced, then we will see a constant state of claim and counter-claim and calls for
action. Where practical, stillwater fisheries may need to be physically protected to
guarantee longevity for specimen fish, otherwise some losses should be expected and
allowed for. For rivers, it is likely that specimen fish will become more the exception rather
than the norm with natural levels of predation restored. This suggests we should work for
healthy balanced fish communities in our rivers, of which specimen fish comprise a small
proportion as would be expected, and otters are part of that healthy and balanced
environment. Otters have been part of the freshwater environment in Europe since the
Pliocene, long before man came on the scene and this alone should serve to indicate that
they do not pose a threat to the viability and future of the fish communities which evolved
with them.
this is a very detailed explanation of how otter population surveys are completed plus it is the population survey by the EA for 2010. What might be of interest is to look for the details for your own local river , plus further down some general comments and information for instance
When considering the possible impact of introduced otters it should be noted that less than
230 individuals of this native species are known ever to have been released in England
and Wales. In contrast, in 2009 alone, fishery owners and managers applied to the
Environment Agency for consent to introduce 13.6 million fish into waters in England and
Wales (C. Eade, pers. comm.) although not all of these will actually have been introduced.
Many of these will be of non-native species.
---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------
Another excerpt worth reading with suggestions that otter predation is actually good for fish population citing the Wye which has , I believe , a substantial otter population
The impact of otter predation remains a very topical issue with discussions taking place
between the Environment Agency, Natural England and representatives of the Angling
Trust to address the concerns, explore the facts and identify the underlying factors which
may be affecting river fisheries. It is clear that the concerns about possible otter impacts
on river fisheries differ from those about stillwaters and require a different set of
responses. For river fisheries, the focus has primarily been on impacts on specimen fish,
particularly chub and barbel which are vulnerable to otter predation. On a number of
lowland rivers in England there has been a trend over the last two decades towards
increasing size and dominance of specimen fish combined with some evidence of poor
recruitment and a skewed age structure of fish populations as a result. An increase in
large specimen fish may be symptomatic of a wider problem of poor recruitment caused by
factors such as poor habitat (often a result of past river engineering), the impact of water
quality on egg survival and in some areas the impact of signal crayfish.
The absence of otters for 30-50 years from some rivers may have contributed to the
change in fish communities; once fish become a certain size they have few if any effective
predators in England other than otters. Without otters they continue to grow subject to
other environmental and biological constraints. The presence of large specimen fish may
also be a factor in poor recruitment and subsequent senility of fish populations, due to
suppression of con-specifics. The complexity of the relationships and ecological
responses is increased by major improvements in water quality, more sensitive river
management, and the manipulation of fish stocks by introductions, removals and artificial
feeding.
It is quite likely that in skewed fish populations dominated by large specimen fish,
predation by otters may initiate a return to a more balanced and sustainable age structure.
There is a clear link between those rivers which were without otters for a long period and
those generating concerns about impacts on specimen fish. Those rivers which had otters
present throughout the period of decline or where otters returned quickly, generate few, if
any, complaints and many have thriving and diverse fisheries. An example is the River
Wye in Herefordshire where the otter population appears to have reached carrying
capacity but the river is regarded as one of the ‘finest pleasure fishing destinations’ in
England (Anglers Mail, 2010; Angling Times, 2010 A; Angling Times, 2010 B). Clearly
good pleasure or match fishing is not incompatible with good otter population. Of ‘the top
50 rivers to fish’ listed in Angling Times (Angling Times 2010 A), 42 have otters present,
many, as on the Wye, with otters at or close to carrying capacity. Similarly in both Ireland
and large areas of Scotland otter populations remained at carrying capacity throughout the
period of decline and recovery in England but the rivers in these countries have remained
prime fishing destinations (Jones, 2009; Jones, 2010; Grigorjevs, 2010).
The return of otters to many rivers raises the issue of their influence on fish population
dynamics in lowland river systems, and also how fish behaviour may respond to the
presence of otters to influence perceptions of abundance. It may be necessary to find
measures to reduce or mitigate possible impacts on fisheries and to predict the likely
responses and future structure of fish populations in response to a return to the historical
norm of otter predation. We need to take a balanced approach to fishery management
and to understand the important place that otters have in our freshwater environment and
the special affection by the public in Britain.
The most extreme response to the conflict of interest between otters and specimen
anglers has been to call for culls and the translocation of problem otters (Whitehead, 2010;
Stones, 2010). Many of these calls are based on a belief that otters somehow have
exceeded ‘natural’ carrying capacity as a result of continuing introductions. In fact less
than 250 otters have ever been released in Britain and the last introduction of captive bred
otters was by the Otter Trust into the upper Thames in 1999. None of the introduced
otters could still be alive and all otters in England today are the result of natural breeding in
the wild, mainly from naturally recovering otter populations but also from the offspring of
introduced individuals.
It is important to remember that these concerns are mainly restricted to a sector of the
angling community (stillwater and some river specimen fishermen) and only to a proportion
of those. Many fishery managers, river keepers and anglers do not foresee the ultimate
demise of fish populations (as it is often characterised) as a result of the recovery and
strengthening of otter populations. Food supply, and its relative availability, will be the
ultimate factor in determining otter density in England as elsewhere but territoriality will
serve to limit numbers within the constraints of food supply. Other environmental
requirements such as secure breeding sites are unlikely to be limiting given the wide range
of habitats which otters are now exploiting. Mortality on roads and in illegally-set fish traps
(both growing trends) might cause temporary lowering of otter populations but such
mortality is likely to replace natural mortality rather than add to it.
Otters have a catholic diet and will exploit whatever fish species are available. It is
possible that the lack of eels on some of our rivers now provides them with a slightly
narrower choice of prey than they would have had in the past but this may be
compensated for by an increased biomass of other species (including non-native species
such as common carp and signal crayfish). The biomass of fish available to them on
English rivers may be no less than prior to their decline and is in any case far higher than
that in some Scottish rivers which have retained good otter populations (Brazier & Mathias,
2001; Kruuk 1995). In some cases where signal crayfish have replaced the biomass of
species previously unavailable (to otters) in the form of smaller invertebrates, the available
biomass may have increased substantially. However the fish biomass on a number of
rivers is now re-distributed into larger specimen fish which increases the likelihood of more
noticeable impacts in the short term until a more natural fish population is restored. New
stillwaters have also increased the prey biomass available still further. However as top
predators, otters will regulate their own density through territorial behaviour and the food
resources available. The concept of ‘over-capacity’ would appear to have little ecological
merit. This will not satisfy the concerns of those who see their specimen waters affected
and their favourite fish partly eaten on the riverbank. We need a better understanding of
what is influencing fish population structure on those rivers which appear to be
‘unbalanced’. There is also a significant challenge to both statutory agencies and
conservationists on the one hand, and angling interests on the other, to consider what the
future of specimen fisheries in the UK could and should be like in the future.
Unless all parties accept that fish must take their chances in the environment like
everything else, and that otters provide part of the backdrop of natural hazards with which
any fish is faced, then we will see a constant state of claim and counter-claim and calls for
action. Where practical, stillwater fisheries may need to be physically protected to
guarantee longevity for specimen fish, otherwise some losses should be expected and
allowed for. For rivers, it is likely that specimen fish will become more the exception rather
than the norm with natural levels of predation restored. This suggests we should work for
healthy balanced fish communities in our rivers, of which specimen fish comprise a small
proportion as would be expected, and otters are part of that healthy and balanced
environment. Otters have been part of the freshwater environment in Europe since the
Pliocene, long before man came on the scene and this alone should serve to indicate that
they do not pose a threat to the viability and future of the fish communities which evolved
with them.
thecrow
Well-known member
I saw someone from the RSPB outside our local Pets at Home yesterday, amazingly she was promoting Otters when trying to get people to join, when I asked if she was aware that Otters have been responsible for the deaths of some rare birds including the Bittern her response was that otters don't kill birds, either she really thought that (I find that difficult to believe) or she was being economical with the truth in front of potential members, I know which I believe.