Rudd and Roach

[chub_on_the_block]

Heres two weird vaguely roach-like creatures that both weighed in excess of 3Ib.

The first I caught back in about 1980 from the Thames at Kingston where the Hogsmill joins it. In those days this spot was difficult to access but outstanding for 10-20Ib bags of roach and the odd bream or carp in winter due to the warm effluent carried in by the Hogsmill. Unfortunately for anglers this area has since been redeveloped with a riverside walk and fishing replaced by the usual shopping and restaurant facilities.

I think now that it was an Ide but 1980 is quite early for this introduced species.

This fish was caught by a mate a few years ago from the River Mole. I think the consensus of opinion is that it too is an Ide. As with my weird fish, there is a distinct lack of red eyes.

 

[Mark Wintle]

Heres two weird vaguely roach-like creatures that both weighed in excess of 3Ib.

The first I caught back in about 1980 from the Thames at Kingston where the Hogsmill joins it. In those days this spot was difficult to access but outstanding for 10-20Ib bags of roach and the odd bream or carp in winter due to the warm effluent carried in by the Hogsmill. Unfortunately for anglers this area has since been redeveloped with a riverside walk and fishing replaced by the usual shopping and restaurant facilities.

I think now that it was an Ide but 1980 is quite early for this introduced species.

This fish was caught by a mate a few years ago from the River Mole. I think the consensus of opinion is that it too is an Ide. As with my weird fish, there is a distinct lack of red eyes.

The top one may well be an ide; the bottom one looks more like a roach x chub. The easiest way to the the two fish apart is the lateral line scale count - if it's in the range 55 to about 61 then likely to be an ide, if around 44 to 45 then more likely a roach x chub. The text books are poor for scale counts in the ranges quoted are much bigger than that found in practice. For roach typically 41 to 43, rudd 39 to 41, roach x rudd 40 to 42.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Thanks Mark - i had considered the chub x roach possibility and would now agree with you. I will let my mate know - thankfully he new it was a hybrid of sorts and not a 3Ib roach!

 

[binka]

Not sure if this clarifies or confuses the issue further but here's another of those that I referred to earlier...



I know one thing for sure I wish I had weighed a couple back at the time, especially that earlier one.

I might get another chance as this lake is only five minutes down the road and I might be re-joining.

 

[seeley]

Bit of bream and something? Rudd?

The thing that really puzzles me is how did two different but similar species come to be in the same waters. I get the divergence bit from an original common ancestor but how did they both turn up in these islands together without converging into a single species again.
I cant think they arrived at vastly different historic times as its only about 12000 years ago these islands were covered in deep ice, so both have arrived since.

It's an interesting point , just like they used to belive we exterminated the nehadathals, and now no through genetics we bread them out , it's why aisians are smaller in frame, as they have no cave man dna but back on topic , like you said if they lived so close spawn at the same time and in the same place why haven't they just turned into one species

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[sam vimes]

Not sure if this clarifies or confuses the issue further but here's another of those that I referred to earlier...



I know one thing for sure I wish I had weighed a couple back at the time, especially that earlier one.

I might get another chance as this lake is only five minutes down the road and I might be re-joining.

Can't see the mouth properly on that pic either, but the position of the dorsal relative to the pelvics would see me putting it down as a roach. I'd rejoin for that water if I were in your shoes.

 

[john step]

It's an interesting point , just like they used to belive we exterminated the nehadathals, and now no through genetics we bread them out , it's why aisians are smaller in frame, as they have no cave man dna but back on topic , like you said if they lived so close spawn at the same time and in the same place why haven't they just turned into one species

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Yes and why develop as two different species in the first place. Any boffins out there?

 

[robtherake]

Yes and why develop as two different species in the first place. Any boffins out there?

They occupy different environmental niches, rudd having evolved to feed primarily in the upper layers, although there is some overlap, given that fish will adapt to take whatever's available at the time.

 

[Philip]

Not sure if this clarifies or confuses the issue further but here's another of those that I referred to earlier...



I know one thing for sure I wish I had weighed a couple back at the time, especially that earlier one.

I might get another chance as this lake is only five minutes down the road and I might be re-joining.

Ray and scale counts fit the bill at least as far as my eyesight can tell but I understand why you had some doubts & I have been there believe me so I dont say that lightly.

Lovely fish by any accounts !

 

[S-Kippy]

Something not quite right about those fish to me but I can't say what. Despite fin positions, scale counts etc there is just something about the overall that says there's some Rudd in there somewhere. The head doesn't look quite right to me.....But what do I know ?

Lovely fish though. I'd join like a shot.

 

[Philip]

Heres two weird vaguely roach-like creatures that both weighed in excess of 3Ib.

The first I caught back in about 1980 from the Thames at Kingston where the Hogsmill joins it. In those days this spot was difficult to access but outstanding for 10-20Ib bags of roach and the odd bream or carp in winter due to the warm effluent carried in by the Hogsmill. Unfortunately for anglers this area has since been redeveloped with a riverside walk and fishing replaced by the usual shopping and restaurant facilities.

I think now that it was an Ide but 1980 is quite early for this introduced species.

This fish was caught by a mate a few years ago from the River Mole. I think the consensus of opinion is that it too is an Ide. As with my weird fish, there is a distinct lack of red eyes.

Top one I would say Ide all day long. Bottom one Chub Hybrid of some description..xRoach x Ide etc. Love the top photo btw ..reminds me my fish photos from years ago when I used to take them in the net with my little polaroid camera

 

[thames mudlarker]

Top one I would say Ide all day long. Bottom one Chub Hybrid of some description..xRoach x Ide etc. Love the top photo btw ..reminds me my fish photos from years ago when I used to take them in the net with my little polaroid camera

I'm inclined to agree here with Phillip and Mark wintle on the assumption that the fish in the bottom pic is most likely to be a roach x chub hybrid,

These hybrids are quite rare but do appear, I can well remember a while back that long standing Chub study group member Stuart Allum has also caught the roach x chub hybrid and if my memory serves me right I'm quite sure that his fish was also caught from near the mouth of the river Mole :thumbs:

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Bibka. Your earlier pic. I also think roach.

A few weeks ago I caught some Test roach. Of similar colour or even more vivid. My pal had 3 over 2lb of similar ilk.

Not too many rudd in the Test.

 

[thames mudlarker]

Bibka. Your earlier pic. I also think roach.

A few weeks ago I caught some Test roach. Of similar colour or even more vivid. My pal had 3 over 2lb of similar ilk.

Not too many rudd in the Test.

A very wise and to true point Graham, I quite agree :thumbs:

 

[Philip]

Talking of Rudd, for the fun heres an odd'un I caught some years ago in a local river that has some clonking Rudd in it.

I suspect allot of people would say "Rudd" but hand on heart I know its not. Close but not close enough on this occasion

 

[thames mudlarker]

Talking of Rudd, for the fun heres an odd'un I caught some years ago in a local river that has some clonking Rudd in it.

I suspect allot of people would say "Rudd" but hand on heart I know its not. Close but not close enough on this occasion

Hi Philip,

Yep I can clearly see that it's a Roach and not a Rudd,

It has all of the Roach features but just has the golden colouration :thumbs:

Golden Rudd do exist as our friend Mr Wintle has also mentioned previously

 

[robcourt82]

It almost seems these days that some people are obsessed with finding hybrids. I would imagine that if you checked the DNA of most fish there would be a hint of hybridization in there somewhere due to the way fish are bred and stocked.
I tend to trust my instinct, if it looks like a roach its a roach. If it looks like a Rudd then it's a Rudd. If it doesn't properly look like either then it's probably a hybrid.
Incidentally I once caught a 4.4lb "roach" but even to my uneducated eye I could see it wasn't a true roach and had a bit of Rudd in it. Wasn't a really obvious one but if you know, you know.

---------- Post added at 06:11 ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 ----------

By the way binka, I'd have said they were roach too.