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Thread: Rudd and Roach

  1. #1
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    Default Rudd and Roach

    Don't want to go off topic on the 'How did you get on thread' but the picture of the rudd/roach got me thinking about the rudd that I've caught around the country that aren't true rudd.They seem to pop up everywhere but in tiny numbers. Unless it's a proper rudd water all the rudd I get seem to be lone fish that are roach coloured and only the fins and mouths indicate either a percentage of rudd in appearance.

    Rather than true hybrids, as there are no true rudd in many of these waters are they roach that have still got the rudd gene from a cross breeding many generations back?

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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    Rudd


    Roach


    As the photos above show here is quite a marked difference between a Rudd and a Roach in most of my local waters; although the Rudds golden colour can be very subdued in some waters I've fished. The slightly rearer position of the Rudds dorsal fin and its slightly upturned mouth is usually a sure sign it's a Rudd unless it's a hybrid of course.

    Keith
    Happiness is fish shaped (It used to be woman shaped but the wife is getting on a bit now)

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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    Not sure but wouldn't the only way to tell be DNA ? but then would a dna base line for true Rudd be needed? where would that come from I think if it looks more Rudd than roach its a Rudd
    •The crow may be caged, but its thoughts are in the cornfield

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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith M View Post
    Rudd


    Roach


    As the photos above show here is quite a marked difference between a Rudd and a Roach in most of my local waters; although the Rudds golden colour can be very subdued in some waters I've fished. The slightly rearer position of the Rudds dorsal fin and its slightly upturned mouth is usually a sure sign it's a Rudd unless it's a hybrid of course.

    Keith
    That's the difference between true rudd and roach Keith which is obvious but what about those inbetween and where do they get them genes from, here's one that would have been thrown back as a 'roach' but it has a small percentage of rudd in it. The photo's a bit blurry but you can see the upturned mouth and fin colouration compared to your roach pic yet it's got roach coloured flanks.


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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    I believe that there is also a yellow finned rudd...............
    That's about as big as a fish that big gets
    If you understand what you’re doing, you’re not learning anything................

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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    Two types of roach; 'normal' and 'golden'. Three types of rudd; 'normal', 'golden' and 'yellow fin'.

    The Artist's pictures look to be of a rudd as does the one on the other thread.

    Very little evidence to prove that populations of roach exist with 'a little bit of rudd' in them or vice versa. First generation hybrids common enough but second generation extremely rare as are back crosses (hybrid x pure species). Loads on this with some very interesting pictures in my two roach books.

    Whilst the sheen of a fish can help in identifying a roach from a rudd it is very much secondary to the primary features of dorsal position, mouth, and if you dissect the fish the pharyngeal teeth. DNA is the best of course. To get a representative DNA sample for roach or rudd you would take 30 fish from 30 different waters and check each one to eliminate obvious hybrids and expect to get a baseline profile.

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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    Colouration differences seem to cause anglers all sorts of angst when it comes to identifying roach and rudd. I also believe that people are generally far too quick to jump to a "hybrid" conclusion when colour variations leads to doubt. Hybridisation between roach and rudd is nowhere near as prevalent as many would have you think. Roach/bream is a different kettle of fish. Hybrids are much more likely between these two species

    When it comes to telling between roach and rudd, I've always gone by the slope of the mouth in combination with the position of the dorsal. Doing it that way has meant that I've never come to the conclusion that I've caught a roach/rudd hybrid. I dare say that I may have been wrong on occasion, but not too often. Don't go by colouration as a prime indicator, environmental influences can play a far bigger part in colouration than genetics ever will.

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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    It's amazing how often potential record roach are scrutinised for being rudd hybrids though.

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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    What's this then?


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    Default Re: Rudd and Roach

    Bit of bream and something? Rudd?

    The thing that really puzzles me is how did two different but similar species come to be in the same waters. I get the divergence bit from an original common ancestor but how did they both turn up in these islands together without converging into a single species again.
    I cant think they arrived at vastly different historic times as its only about 12000 years ago these islands were covered in deep ice, so both have arrived since.
    Last edited by john step; 05-02-2017 at 17:14. Reason: add a bit

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