The demise of Premier waters.

[Derek Gibson]

It goes without saying, there are many reasons why certain water's deteriorate. Water quality, predation from above the water line etc.

But here I am thinking of past water's over the years that held stellar reputations for the quality of fish they produced and held. Many of those water's are now but a shadow of what they once were. Many anglers of a certain age will be aware of most of these venues, and will no doubt have their own opinions as to their decline.

For my own part, and yes I know I'm sticking my neck out here. But I believe it is no more than they become victims of the publicity afforded to them following a series of spectacular captures. That inevitably draws other anglers in like the proverbial magnet, with the increase in pressure a decline in returns is almost guaranteed over time.

Is this a condemnation of those who frequented those water's, no not really as in the final analysis it's human nature not to be on the outside looking in. But none the less the fact remains.

And as you may note I have made no mention of when the circus comes to town.

 

[thecrow]

I think it has become more difficult to keep a water quiet. imo there are a couple of reasons for this.

Not knocking carp anglers but it has grown beyond all proportion from years ago until now it possibly has the largest participation group of UK angling most only wanting to catch bigger and bigger fish, its inevitable that some of these anglers want recognition from other anglers and in their quest for that they publicise catches where anglers would never dream of doing such a thing years ago although I know of one well known predator angler that resorted to following others and watching them through binoculars from his 3 wheeler van.

The internet has made it much easier for anglers to trawl through for information about waters or even where particular fish were caught, I see lots of questions about where and on what a fish was caught some get answers which in turn leads to more anglers/pressure on a water, a prime example of publicity leading to the death of a fish was the 40lb pike from boddington res a few years ago.

The secretive world of the "specimen hunter" ( I hate that phrase) has gone cash prizes, tackle prizes, fame, sponsorship, celebrity wanting to tell all and sundry what where and how have all lead to pressure on waters and the resulting downturn of the quality of the fishing, its not just the fish that suffer though, banks become devoid of grass litter gets left human waste is left and in the end some waters are lost to anglers because of it.

 

[binka]

As soon as I read the thread title my mind immediately jumped to the publicity thing.

I think both predation and illegal poaching for the pot have both increased from what they were but the publicity issue has to be the single biggest factor imo.

 

[mikench]

Welcome back Derek! I have missed your thought provoking posts and cannot really provide much comment as I have no experience of the " before" and just a little of the "after". Bearing in mind my relatively paltry catches and frequent blanks I would have to agree with you! Comments received from members of the clubs i am a member of, repeatedly say " this lake is not as good as it was 10, 15 years ago". Other members wisely advise me never to say where i had a good day at, certainly on a public forum for the obvious reasons.

I fished a lake last saturday with some success ( relative) using a swing tip for the first time and a new rod. The weather was lovely, the setting sublime, the coffee was good, the antics of the breeding and nesting birds was a joy to behold and I was all alone on my stretch of the lake. I really enjoyed myself.

I watched the carp anglers spodding, thankfully a good way from me. The lake at that point is perhaps 80 yards across with many pegs on the other side ( vacant on the day). They were launching their scuds 70 or so yards every few minutes accompanied by shouts and guffaws. I would have walked round to the other side of the lake, balled in all the GB considered necessary 10 yards out and then gently cast in from one of the nearby pegs. Little disturbance to fish and fellow anglers! As I do not fish for carp what do i know! Each to their own I suppose.

Just as i have a phobia about going to the loo when the entire line is occupied with all the resultant unpleasantries so i dislike sitting in a peg cheek by jowl with angler after angler! Give me a lovely setting, a few fish and plenty of space and I am happy. I can really relate to roving on a river miles from anywhere! Roll on June!

 

[Tee-Cee]

Pressure, and all it brings with, is definitely a major cause of water decline, but I'm lead to believe (and from what I've read over the years and personal experience) that waters have peaks and troughs, with some more affected than others.
I can think of several waters I've fished where quality, quantity and fish size has declined over a number of years and catches of very big fish has gone from a regular feature to a rarity, and this without undue pressure from those chasing big fish. Finding a water that contains very big fish when it's at its peak is never easy, but if you do I suggest the clock is ticking, and it is not going to last forever....

Way back when, I was fortunate to fish a very private (family) still water for a number of years that saw few anglers each year and I caught well, but in the end (over a 5 year period) or so the fishing gradually dropped off. I continued to catch but size and numbers reduced...
I didn't get the opportunity to see what happened to the place as the water/property was eventually sold, and I am not saying this is a typical example, but as I say, even less pressured water go into decline eventually IMHO

Maybe just natural decline................??

Good to see the OP back to his best with thought provoking Threads!!

 

[S-Kippy]

I think all of the above are contributory factors. I certainly agree that waters are cyclical and that a falling off after a peak is inevitable. The balance of a water can be affected too by ill considered stockings/fish removal and they can sometimes just get too damned hard to fish because of weed particularly. I can think of a few local waters which have become absolutely choked with weed in a very short space of time and results have naturally suffered because you can't get a bait in the water. Fish get cute very quickly too.

I can honestly say I've never fished a water at its peak and I'm not sure I'd want to anyway. I like my space too much. The nearest I ever got was The Royalty in the heyday of the maggot in the early 70's. What a bloody bunfight that was.

 

[steve2]

What actually is a premier water? Some would say that the country is now full of them, waters where they can catch easy 20lb plus carp or large catches of carp. That seems to me what premier waters are all about these days.
So for the carp angler there as been no demise, for the non-carp angler there as been a definite down turn in many cases due to the overstocking of carp.

 

[rayner]

What actually is a premier water? Some would say that the country is now full of them, waters where they can catch easy 20lb plus carp or large catches of carp. That seems to me what premier waters are all about these days.
So for the carp angler there as been no demise, for the non-carp angler there as been a definite down turn in many cases due to the overstocking of carp.

If I read your post right, I understand your point with regard to a down turn for the non carper is primarily made around commercials.
In my experience roach fishing has never been easier than it is at present. OK what I would call quality roach around the 2lb and above for some reason are far too allusive in my chosen fishery, may be it's the way I fish. Generally numbers in my case are vastly increased in the ounces to a pound fish to what I remember years ago.

From a personal point of view it's my belief that the only demise as I see it is with regard to carp, F1s even ide.
Indigenous species are thriving and mostly left alone to do what they do. Even anglers who do fish for roach and bream generally fish far too heavy in case they hook a carp, to my mind. Mostly to the detriment of catching roach.

 

[dorsetandchub]

Just to echo others' thoughts that it's great to have Derek pitch questions again, they always get me thinking.

Prime waters, as all waters, are surely affected, often negatively, by a great many factors that, on the face of it, have been introduced for many other reasons, examples being mass immigration, farming techniques and practices, temperature fluctuations, etc.

I don't have a lot of time at the minute but will go away and think about the question raised.

Regarding prime waters though, given all waters are affected to varying degrees, is it merely a case of "the bigger they come, the harder they fall"?

 

[flightliner]

The "premier"waters that I,ve known and fished are most likely never have been a recognised one in a national context( not including rivers here, just stillwaters) with perhaps the famous northamptonshire tench water -- two trips only---. But on occasions one or two have hit peak form and when it does it's amazing how quickly their popularity mushrooms .
Like derek says its human nature for folk to try the place but the end result is always the same, pressure eventually has a big effect with the venue going into sad decline.
Pike, roach, tench, bream waters , I,ve seen them all suffer and its sad to see and hard to find an alternative venue that can provide fishing of equel calibre which over time has made me very aware of how I treat a water I fish that is vulnerable to said pressures and circumstances.
I have never been a circus angler with the one northamptonshire venue exception but two trips only is hardly enough for a label to stick, but some I know could dissagree but If I named waters Where my biggest fish of any species were caught I doubt many would recognise their names, better 4hat way for all concerned, especially the waters residents.
Its obviously easier today to find info on waters, here, facebook, other internet forums, and the angling press under pressure by the Internet to name waters every week region by region.
Anglers sponsered by tackle companies are also under pressure to produce the goods all the while to keep their backers happy and its not unusual for them to be seen showing off some big specimen with the water in full veiw--- all very differant from some thirty or so years ago.
So, name a water and accept the consequences of it being far more busy than ever it was and if swims are limited dont cry if you've arrived early after a long drive and you cant find a place to sit because some swims will have not one but two anglers or bivvies set up in it .
The upside however if the water is a genuine "premier" one that has been overfished, gone downhill and the circus have gone on to pastures new , during the intervening period it will quitely regenerate itself and if you keep an eye on it , it could give you a fish of a lifetime like the one I had last year before its renewal is recognised and another downhill route is on the cards.
Other than the dozen or so words above thats all thats been said publicly, period!.

 

[thames mudlarker]

Welcome back Derek! I have missed your thought provoking posts and cannot really provide much comment as I have no experience of the " before" and just a little of the "after". Bearing in mind my relatively paltry catches and frequent blanks I would have to agree with you! Comments received from members of the clubs i am a member of, repeatedly say " this lake is not as good as it was 10, 15 years ago". Other members wisely advise me never to say where i had a good day at, certainly on a public forum for the obvious reasons.

I fished a lake last saturday with some success ( relative) using a swing tip for the first time and a new rod. The weather was lovely, the setting sublime, the coffee was good, the antics of the breeding and nesting birds was a joy to behold and I was all alone on my stretch of the lake. I really enjoyed myself.

I watched the carp anglers spodding, thankfully a good way from me. The lake at that point is perhaps 80 yards across with many pegs on the other side ( vacant on the day). They were launching their scuds 70 or so yards every few minutes accompanied by shouts and guffaws. I would have walked round to the other side of the lake, balled in all the GB considered necessary 10 yards out and then gently cast in from one of the nearby pegs. Little disturbance to fish and fellow anglers! As I do not fish for carp what do i know! Each to their own I suppose.

Just as i have a phobia about going to the loo when the entire line is occupied with all the resultant unpleasantries so i dislike sitting in a peg cheek by jowl with angler after angler! Give me a lovely setting, a few fish and plenty of space and I am happy. I can really relate to roving on a river miles from anywhere! Roll on June!

Absolutely Mike, hence why I luv me river roving so much

---------- Post added at 08:01 ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 ----------

I think it has become more difficult to keep a water quiet. imo there are a couple of reasons for this.

Not knocking carp anglers but it has grown beyond all proportion from years ago until now it possibly has the largest participation group of UK angling most only wanting to catch bigger and bigger fish, its inevitable that some of these anglers want recognition from other anglers and in their quest for that they publicise catches where anglers would never dream of doing such a thing years ago although I know of one well known predator angler that resorted to following others and watching them through binoculars from his 3 wheeler van.

The internet has made it much easier for anglers to trawl through for information about waters or even where particular fish were caught, I see lots of questions about where and on what a fish was caught some get answers which in turn leads to more anglers/pressure on a water, a prime example of publicity leading to the death of a fish was the 40lb pike from boddington res a few years ago.

The secretive world of the "specimen hunter" ( I hate that phrase) has gone cash prizes, tackle prizes, fame, sponsorship, celebrity wanting to tell all and sundry what where and how have all lead to pressure on waters and the resulting downturn of the quality of the fishing, its not just the fish that suffer though, banks become devoid of grass litter gets left human waste is left and in the end some waters are lost to anglers because of it.

Absolutely agree Crow, well said :thumbs:

---------- Post added at 08:08 ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 ----------

If I read your post right, I understand your point with regard to a down turn for the non carper is primarily made around commercials.
In my experience roach fishing has never been easier than it is at present. OK what I would call quality roach around the 2lb and above for some reason are far too allusive in my chosen fishery, may be it's the way I fish. Generally numbers in my case are vastly increased in the ounces to a pound fish to what I remember years ago.

From a personal point of view it's my belief that the only demise as I see it is with regard to carp, F1s even ide.
Indigenous species are thriving and mostly left alone to do what they do. Even anglers who do fish for roach and bream generally fish far too heavy in case they hook a carp, to my mind. Mostly to the detriment of catching roach.

Spot on, I couldn't agree more, well said, especially as far as roach fishing is concerned as big roach have never been what is classed as easy anywhere or anytime

---------- Post added at 08:34 ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 ----------






Mmm......premier waters, well to be fair all my fishing is virtually on premier waters,

In me earlier days when I carp fished back in the eighties and early nineties I fished waters like Darenth, Kent and as far field as Wrasbury, these were and still are premier waters basically for the size of fish they hold and in truth to me that is what premier waters are all about

For well over 30 years I've fished some of the very best rivers and particular club stretches in the south and southeast of England IE the Lea valley clubs, Kennet, Avon, test and Itchen to name a few,

On all of these mentioned rivers they all have premier sections, again there all reputed to throw up quality fish,

The river Lea at kings weir and Fishers green is a fine example, I've been a member here on and off for some 28 years now and have seen things come and go aswell as a lot of general changes, the river here is arguably one of the best if not the best chub river in the country along with some big barbel,
Because this section is so famous it's now had experienced anglers travel the whole entire country to fish the venue, this obviously has created a massive name for itself and is why it's classed as a premier fishery,

The river has been hit by the Black Death " cormorants " and nowadays you'd have a job in some areas to actually see any small fish, the river at present just seems to hold big fish with few small fish, I now worry what will happen in a few years time when a lot of these big girls ( fish ) all start to die off and then what, there's not a lot of small fish,
I can well remember about 20 years ago under Bailey bridge, Fishers green where there used to be a decent showl of quality roach to well over 2 lb but now all sadly long gone, it'll certainly take some time before we see another generation of big roach again on that section and not all the while those blasted cormorants are still hanging about

As I'm more of a river specialist in search of big roach, chub and dace I tend to find rivers that have a reputation for big fish and it seems that most of me fishing is what is regarded as premier waters........but I also love finding small rivers that are often neglected and hardly ever get fished because my belief is that all fish will thrive on neglect and these are my no:1 choice of little rivers :thumbs:

 

[robcourt82]

Hmmmm, all quite interesting.....
I wonder.....
A "new" water is "discovered" by a good angler, he catches some good fish, he tells a friend. He's also a good angler and catches some good fish. Soon, its no longer a new water, lots of people know about it, lots of people fish it, not all are good anglers. The good anglers go elsewhere and the fishery declines.
Has the water declined or are the "wrong" anglers fishing it? Are the "right" anglers not getting the good areas at the right times?

I guess it will always be a subject of opinion and hard to prove or disprove.

 

[rayner]

I feel at a real disadvantage on threads like this.
Before health issues all my fishing was river based with the odd canal trip just because that's where my grounding in fishing was primarily based.

Since 1999 when my health took a dramatic down turn I've been as stuck on commercials as the fish that live there.
I had the idea that so called Premier Waters were commercial fisheries totally because of the level of stocking that commercials hold. The thing that's becoming obvious to me from reading the posts from anglers contributing to this particular thread is the rivers I fished in my younger/healthier times are indeed classed as Premier Waters by anglers who actually fish them.


I have a real dislike for what can only be described as mud holes. Unfortunately for me and thousands of anglers in a similar predicament, allowing for the dislike of these holes without them I would have no chance of ever wetting a line.
So for me any water I am able to fish is totally a Premier Water. I will when I next meet the owner of the commercial I fish thank him for enabling me to fish.

One other thing, being what can only be called a lone angler and one that actively avoids speaking to anglers on the bank puts me firmly in the not in the know clan, I don't normally pay much attention but.
I would appreciate an explanation to a term that crops up occasionally.
The term "the circus" what is this please.

 

[flightliner]

The circus generally relates to a water that is revealed to hold big fish of specimen size , usually by their capture appearing in the angling press.
Anglers wanting to catch similer sized fish tend to appear "en masse " to enjoy what others found, often by hard work and expense making it difficult for them to enjoy what was once a relatively quiter, much more peacefull venue.
In short, the "circus" has arrived , often associated with a gradual tailing off of the quality of fishing that once was.
The scenario is one that even has it's very own "Ringmaster"

 

[fishing4luckies]

The scenario is one that even has it's very own "Ringmaster"

And more often than not it's fair share of clowns, performing monkeys.......etc etc.

 

[mikench]

After my Rudd of around 6/8 oz yesterday I sincerely hope the circus does not visit the venue

 

[steve2]

The premier rivers that I use to fish the Hampshire Avon, the Dorset Stour, the Kennet, Fishers Green, to me all appear to be on a going backwards. Not because they don’t hold big fish but because they don’t have the shoals of small fish coming through.
When I walk along any riverbank now all I see is pockets of fish and what appear to be large barren sections.
If we have to keep restocking these waters we can’t blame everything on to cormorants there must be something wrong with the environment. In fact should we restock them at all?

Do you need just big fish to have a premier fishery? I fished a well managed beautiful club lake today and it does not contain any “big” fish but to me it’s what a premier fishery should be.

 

[tigger]

The fact that I never mention where I fish keeps the circus away.

 

[thecrow]

The premier rivers that I use to fish the Hampshire Avon, the Dorset Stour, the Kennet, Fishers Green, to me all appear to be on a going backwards.

Not according to Martin Salter, everything is rosy.

 

[thames mudlarker]

I feel at a real disadvantage on threads like this.
Before health issues all my fishing was river based with the odd canal trip just because that's where my grounding in fishing was primarily based.

Since 1999 when my health took a dramatic down turn I've been as stuck on commercials as the fish that live there.
I had the idea that so called Premier Waters were commercial fisheries totally because of the level of stocking that commercials hold. The thing that's becoming obvious to me from reading the posts from anglers contributing to this particular thread is the rivers I fished in my younger/healthier times are indeed classed as Premier Waters by anglers who actually fish them.


I have a real dislike for what can only be described as mud holes. Unfortunately for me and thousands of anglers in a similar predicament, allowing for the dislike of these holes without them I would have no chance of ever wetting a line.
So for me any water I am able to fish is totally a Premier Water. I will when I next meet the owner of the commercial I fish thank him for enabling me to fish.

One other thing, being what can only be called a lone angler and one that actively avoids speaking to anglers on the bank puts me firmly in the not in the know clan, I don't normally pay much attention but.
I would appreciate an explanation to a term that crops up occasionally.
The term "the circus" what is this please.

I'm personally not a great lover of commercials but I can fully accept and respect anyone like yerself that is limited to commercials, as you rightly say that if it wasn't for these type of waters you may not be able to wet a line,
This probably also applies to a lot of other people aswell and so in this respect to me commercials are a good thing for many and worth considering :thumbs:

On a personal note I'll stick to me rivers,
As it's the close season I'm considering about doing the odd few sessions on a few over grown southern canals

---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

Hmmmm, all quite interesting.....
I wonder.....
A "new" water is "discovered" by a good angler, he catches some good fish, he tells a friend. He's also a good angler and catches some good fish. Soon, its no longer a new water, lots of people know about it, lots of people fish it, not all are good anglers. The good anglers go elsewhere and the fishery declines.
Has the water declined or are the "wrong" anglers fishing it? Are the "right" anglers not getting the good areas at the right times?

I guess it will always be a subject of opinion and hard to prove or disprove.

On a lot of these type of waters the fish are still there but many of em have obviously wised up, a lot of the time it's the anglers that are not getting things right,
It's all very well In the angler having all the gear but if he ain't got no idea then it's down hill all the way,

A lot of it simply boils down to doing some serious location and watercraft and studying the fish, feeding times , patrol routes, weather paterns etc,
All of these things can actually make a huge difference if the fish have already been pressurised,
Just need to do yer home work more :thumbs: