Should Clubs Amalgamate?

iain t

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One thing i can't understand is the joining fee. I've seen them range from £7 to £150. Why so high, what is it for. OK a new member will cost a club a couple of quid for club book, membership card and also the postage to send these out to the member. No way administration costs the club £150 for each new member. So how can clubs justify this charge? It only puts anglers off joining. My club does not have a joining fee and the other club that i used to belonged to charged £8. Which i had no problem with but £150, are they having a joke. I bet if these clubs that charge high joining fees lowered them they would get many more members joining.
 

thecrow

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Funnily enough I checked out my two local clubs today, online and in the tackle shop. They seem to have both dropped their joining fees which used to be about £50 last time I looked + the annual fee which I think was about £50 as well making £100 but now charging a straight £65 a year. I wonder if that's because of diminishing membership.



I baulk at paying any "entrance fee" I see it as being charged for the privilege of joining a club when its not just me that wants to join the club wants me ( not necessarily me but you know what I mean ) to join their club to assist their being able to pay rents (and water rates?) on waters so why shouldn't they either drop them altogether or offer some incentive to the angler to join.

I understand about things being a sellers market but if no one buy's which is happening more and more the seller goes bust with all the associated problems that Sam mentioned earlier in the thread for the lost waters. I know most clubs have different fees for old uns and the disabled but that's a dwindling market and imo clubs should be looking for younger members.
 

sam vimes

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Before I start, I'd like to make it plain that I dislike joining fees immensely. I have refused to join quite a few clubs because of them. However, I can acknowledge that there may be rational reasons for their implementation.

Some clubs use them as a means to discourage those that they may not actually want as members. Someone prepared to pay more than the normal yearly rate for their first year are usually pretty serious about their fishing. Others are using it to appease long standing members, especially where they may have funded purchases of rights or stock out of their own pockets. However, the vast majority use joining fees as a means of encouraging prompt membership renewals, usually at a time when the income is required to pay rents. The prospect of being hit with another joining fee, if they don't renew by a certain date, is usually a pretty good motivator.
 

thecrow

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However, the vast majority use joining fees as a means of encouraging prompt membership renewals, usually at a time when the income is required to pay rents. The prospect of being hit with another joining fee, if they don't renew by a certain date, is usually a pretty good motivator.

Yep understand that entirely, I have seen clubs with joining fees that would have to be repaid to keep membership if renewals are not paid by a stated time.
 

trotter2

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I am not a fan of membership fees either. Even though my local clubs have them.
It's basically used to prevent you dropping out once you sign the dotted line.
Or it can be use to encourages payments before the cut off point. Getting the funds in before the expenditure starts.
I think it discurrages potential new members from giving it a try which can me bad for membership numbers. I would abolish membership fees all together I have voted against it many times sadly to no avail.
 

thecrow

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I would abolish membership fees all together I have voted against it many times sadly to no avail.

Difficult to do when others have already paid them to join. I have recently received an invitation from a club based in Crewe for next season, I wont be taking it up because of the joining fee.
 

no-one in particular

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The joining fee did put me off at the time I looked at this, I thought £50 was a cheek and just too much, asking me for that amount just for the privilege of joining and £150, I would want Angelina Jolie thrown in..
The other thing I noticed is that both clubs have no joining-payment facilities on their websites. One had a joining form that you could download and then send to the address on the form or advised to go into one of the local tackle shops and join there. The other just had a list of tackle shops to go into, no form or address to write to. Both had a contact page but no address given as a base. I am not saying that is difficult but no payment- instant joining on either website which surprised me in this day and age. Grab the person why they are looking at a website not present them with secondary hurdles. How much could they all benefit from one really good modern website? Which would probably be cheaper than all the cheap websites.
It just gives me the impression that these smallish clubs are run on a shoe string, cheap websites and run from a spare room kind of thing, which I understand but it all looks like they are stuck in the 1960's a bit to me.
I also asked the bloke in the tackle shop how many members each club had, he did not know, actually got a bit cagey and asked me why I wanted know, I said just interest in the density of members to waters.
I asked about their flagship waters one of which I know you used to have to book in advance if you wanted to fish there, he said, no problem, there might be 6 or 7 anglers on it at any one time, so I guess their membership must have dropped quite a bit over the last few years.
Maybe unfair to just use two clubs as an example but I wonder how typical this is in general.
 
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theartist

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Joining fees put me off trying out a club for a season but can understand them. It's probably not viable in cost per trip of joining more than two clubs - at least with the prices is some areas it isn't, besides there's a third club that costs nowt and that's the free fishing, plenty of waters about that fit that criteria not to mention day tickets.
 

no-one in particular

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Joining fees put me off trying out a club for a season but can understand them. It's probably not viable in cost per trip of joining more than two clubs - at least with the prices is some areas it isn't, besides there's a third club that costs nowt and that's the free fishing, plenty of waters about that fit that criteria not to mention day tickets.
At the time Artist, about 2000-2002 I was just starting fishing again after a long break and started on a commercial spree. These cost about £5 a time then and many where exceptional waters to fish, clean, good facilities and not easy at all; and the pay as you go suited me and my mates very well. Later I turned to free waters and the occasional commercial, I found enough to enjoy and variety. The incentive or will to join a club just wasn't there.
 
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trotter2

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One of the local Darlo fishing clubs has an open day each year, its free fishing for the open day and if you join on the day they waver the joining fee.
Sounds a good idea to me gets people to try the club.:thumbs:
 

thecrow

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One of the local Darlo fishing clubs has an open day each year, its free fishing for the open day and if you join on the day they waver the joining fee.

I think that's a great idea, forward thinking by the committee.

---------- Post added at 09:05 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

I know of one club where the joining fee is £365 the club is partly a game club but the also have course fisheries, a new member would be required to pay £620 for their first season, totally ridiculous imo but anglers must be paying it or the club would go bust or would it?

If the normal club fees are enough to pay for the waters on the clubs books where does the joining fee go? It doesn't go on maintaining the course fisheries as lots of their river stretches are unfishable, not all clubs are struggling for money.
 

no-one in particular

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That joining fee is not a good practice, cant blame any club for trying to making money but you normally have to give something in return. This is not giving anything, I understand the reasons given but you just don't get this in normal practice, I cant think of one example at the moment, you don't pay a fee to go into a shop before you buy anything

Sorry if I look like I am just doing a downer on clubs all the time but it is what this thread is about, seeing if, how and where clubs can change in some way to compete in the modern world. Put some buzz back into them, give them a new lease of life etc.
 
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sam vimes

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The other thing I noticed is that both clubs have no joining-payment facilities on their websites. One had a joining form that you could download and then send to the address on the form or advised to go into one of the local tackle shops and join there. The other just had a list of tackle shops to go into, no form or address to write to. Both had a contact page but no address given as a base. I am not saying that is difficult but no payment- instant joining on either website which surprised me in this day and age. Grab the person why they are looking at a website not present them with secondary hurdles. How much could they all benefit from one really good modern website? Which would probably be cheaper than all the cheap websites. It just gives me the impression that these smallish clubs are run on a shoe string, cheap websites and run from a spare room kind of thing, which I understand but it all looks like they are stuck in the 1960's a bit to me.

What do you actually expect? Chances are that the average age of anyone that actually commits some time and effort to the club is closer to seventy than forty. The danger of them being able to implement a decent website and instant payment system are rather slim. The prospect of them being able to afford to pay someone to do it for them are just as slim. In the majority of cases the officers of the club won't be desperate to have their private addresses and phone numbers splashed about. The prospect of actually having a business address is unlikely in the case of most clubs.

That joining fee is not a good practice, cant blame any club for trying to making money but you normally have to give something in return. This is not giving anything, I understand the reasons given but you just don't get this in normal practice, I cant think of one example at the moment, you don't pay a fee to go into a shop before you buy anything

Sorry if I look like I am just doing a downer on clubs all the time but it is what this thread is about, seeing if, how and where clubs can change in some way to compete in the modern world. Put some buzz back into them, give them a new lease of life etc.

No, the joining fee is not good practice from your point of view. It may make perfect sense from the point of view of the committee and membership. It may be in the best interests of the club as a whole. That is all that matters. As you and I are not a members, what we think doesn't matter one iota.

I'm sorry, but this is one long ill informed diatribe. You want a club to be exactly what you want it to be. I'd contend that, as you've never put a penny, or an ounce of effort, into a club, you have absolutely no right to moan about them or the people doing their best to run them. Ultimately, if you think a club can be run better, and many of them probably can, stop moaning from the sidelines, and get involved. If you are under sixty, you're likely to get to feel very young again. Alternatively, set your own club up. Good luck with either prospect.
 

Mark Wintle

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Well said, Chris. I was on a committee for 27 years and it's a thankless task though it's only by being involved that things get done. Even now when I'm just an honorary vice president I still end up creating a rule/maps book for that same club but it helps them.
 

Bluenose

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As stated elsewhere, many clubs have a long history, some going back more than a century. To amalgamate, such clubs would lose that identity and history, however sharing waters and/or resources can and does work in some instances. In view of some stretches of riverbank and many canal towpaths that are often devoid of anglers now, I wonder why more clubs don't share the rents on fisheries which are underused?

Something I'd like to see expanded would be to see clubs in different parts of the country have reciprocal arrangements whereby membership of one, allows a member to visit certain water/s of another. So, being a member of WAA for example might give me access to certain club waters in Worcs or Hants were I to visit the area... although I suppose an argument against would be that anglers visiting some counties makes up a valuable revenue stream for some clubs?
 

no-one in particular

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What do you actually expect? Chances are that the average age of anyone that actually commits some time and effort to the club is closer to seventy than forty. The danger of them being able to implement a decent website and instant payment system are rather slim. The prospect of them being able to afford to pay someone to do it for them are just as slim. In the majority of cases the officers of the club won't be desperate to have their private addresses and phone numbers splashed about. The prospect of actually having a business address is unlikely in the case of most clubs.



No, the joining fee is not good practice from your point of view. It may make perfect sense from the point of view of the committee and membership. It may be in the best interests of the club as a whole. That is all that matters. As you and I are not a members, what we think doesn't matter one iota.

I'm sorry, but this is one long ill informed diatribe. You want a club to be exactly what you want it to be. I'd contend that, as you've never put a penny, or an ounce of effort, into a club, you have absolutely no right to moan about them or the people doing their best to run them. Ultimately, if you think a club can be run better, and many of them probably can, stop moaning from the sidelines, and get involved. If you are under sixty, you're likely to get to feel very young again. Alternatively, set your own club up. Good luck with either prospect.

Most hosting comes in packages, to upgrade to a package that allows payment facilities costs very little, £50 a year extra or less depending on the hosting company. Most of the work is done for you and is already set up, requires pressing a button and filling in a few details. Its not difficult or expensive, it wouldn't be difficult for any club to find someone to do it. The point is and why I noted it is because it probably loses potential members, its the cost of one membership fee and probably loses more than one over a year. Its not the case I expect it, it does not bother me its just that more and more this day and age, especially the younger generation, they are used to doing everything on-line, they may very well not bother with downloading forms and sending them off with a cheque or going into tackle shops, they would expect it probably.
A joining fee may very well suit the committee or the club as a whole, but I doubt it encourages membership, in fact I am sure of that. that's the point I make.
If you want to refuse to accept any of these reasons for possible dwindling membership, some personal diatribe of mine, that's up to you; I can only repeat something I said earlier-

"Sorry if I look like I am just doing a downer on clubs all the time but it is what this thread is about, seeing if, how and where clubs can change in some way to compete in the modern world. Put some buzz back into them, give them a new lease of life etc."

I wont bother anymore, your probably right, I have said enough, not so sure your right that I have no right to moan though, pass, I know what you mean- over to you-you got any ideas how that may happen? I have had my turn, you have a go. make a nice change you just nay saying everything I suggest and moaning about me, have a go, fair enough, your in a different position to me, a more enlightened and informed one, you must have lots of ideas, the floors all yours, be constructive.

---------- Post added at 07:39 ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 ----------

As stated elsewhere, many clubs have a long history, some going back more than a century. To amalgamate, such clubs would lose that identity and history, however sharing waters and/or resources can and does work in some instances. In view of some stretches of riverbank and many canal towpaths that are often devoid of anglers now, I wonder why more clubs don't share the rents on fisheries which are underused?

Something I'd like to see expanded would be to see clubs in different parts of the country have reciprocal arrangements whereby membership of one, allows a member to visit certain water/s of another. So, being a member of WAA for example might give me access to certain club waters in Worcs or Hants were I to visit the area... although I suppose an argument against would be that anglers visiting some counties makes up a valuable revenue stream for some clubs?

I wouldn't like to see clubs lose all that history and personality; it’s why I changed my mind through this debate and favored some kind of affiliation, not amalgamation as such. I love angling history and it should be kept. Some clubs do have reciprocal agreements, I proposed if they could go further than that on the same theme and if it would benefit all concerned or if there are other ways but certainly the histories and cultures of clubs is important.
 
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sam vimes

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Most hosting comes in packages, to upgrade to a package that allows payment facilities costs very little, £50 a year extra or less depending on the hosting company. Most of the work is done for you and is already set up, requires pressing a button and filling in a few details. Its not difficult or expensive, it wouldn't be difficult for any club to find someone to do it. The point is and why I noted it is because it probably loses potential members, its the cost of one membership fee and probably loses more than one over a year. Its not the case I expect it, it does not bother me its just that more and more this day and age, especially the younger generation, they are used to doing everything on-line, they may very well not bother with downloading forms and sending them off with a cheque or going into tackle shops, they would expect it probably.
A joining fee may very well suit the committee or the club as a whole, but I doubt it encourages membership, in fact I am sure of that. that's the point I make.
If you want to refuse to accept any of these reasons for possible dwindling membership, some personal diatribe of mine, that's up to you; I can only repeat something I said earlier-

"Sorry if I look like I am just doing a downer on clubs all the time but it is what this thread is about, seeing if, how and where clubs can change in some way to compete in the modern world. Put some buzz back into them, give them a new lease of life etc."

I wont bother anymore, your probably right, I have said enough, not so sure your right that I have no right to moan though, pass, I know what you mean- over to you-you got any ideas how that may happen? I have had my turn, you have a go. make a nice change you just nay saying everything I suggest and moaning about me, have a go, fair enough, your in a different position to me, a more enlightened and informed one, you must have lots of ideas, the floors all yours, be constructive.

Hosting costs are largely a red herring, the cost of them, in isolation, being fairly insignificant. However, your assertion that building a website is easy isn't far off the mark, provided you have a semblance of tech savvy. Look around this forum, the average age is relatively old, and, without any disrespect intended, a large number of regular posters can't post a picture or hyperlink. Most committees are made up of older blokes who are just the same. Quite a few will be older still and they don't even have PCs, smartphones or tablets. The prospect of most club committee men building a website is pie in the sky. Unless they manage to find someone within the ranks of the club, they would probably end up paying through the nose for someone to do it for them. You or I sitting on the sidelines saying to a bunch of retired old men that it's easy doesn't make any difference, they can't/won't do it. If you can, I'm sure they'd be incredibly grateful for your assistance.

As for much of the rest, you've already been given answers as to why many of the things you are railing against exist. I may not disagree that some things that happen within clubs aren't good for their long term future. Unlike you, almost whether I liked it or not, I got involved, I learned an awful lot. I found reasons for things I couldn't believe happened. I found out why certain things happened the way they did. I found that certain things that looked a certain way from the outside were nothing like they seemed. Some things I don't like still happen, despite me not liking them, despite me arguing against them. Some things we've changed, even when those changes seemed very unlikely. During my time on a committee, we've changed pricing structures, dropped joining fees, dropped waters, gained waters, introduced and dropped winter tickets, renegotiated leases downwards, collaborated with other clubs and pushed most of the membership to on-line payment.

I'm one of two committee men in my own club that are anything approaching IT literate. Between us, we do pretty much everything in that sphere. I get to go to a monthly meeting in the local town. By default, I get to bailiff club waters. I've built styles, schlepped round the countryside looking for new waters, cleared riverside access and guided new/potential members round our waters. I don't get a penny for doing any of this, not even a free membership, not that I ever expected to. Sadly, the reality is that most just whinge. Even if they are members, they won't even go to an AGM, let alone join the committee. Then there are those that aren't even members.

Some clubs are struggling, and maybe they could do more to help themselves. Other clubs perhaps don't need to do a thing, despite outward appearances. One thing I am sure of is that club committees are invariably populated by people with altruistic motives. They may not be brilliant, they may be misguided or hopelessly behind the times, but they'll be doing what they think is in the best interests of the club. In some cases, they may be fighting a losing battle. Changes in angler numbers and changes in angling fashion may mean that they'll struggle to grow the club, regardless of what they do. Others dawdle towards oblivion due to the lack of folks prepared to step up to the plate and get involved. To paraphrase JFK, ask not what your club can do for you—ask what you can do for your club. If you've got such skills and ideas to drag a club kicking and screaming into the present, get involved. Don't be surprised if you end up finding that some of your bright ideas are non-starters, have been, at least, contemplated before or couldn't have been implemented for the want of people with the relevant skills.
 

no-one in particular

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I see you have some day tickets available with some restrictions, are these popular and can they be bought on-line? Do they generate much cash?
 

sam vimes

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I see you have some day tickets available with some restrictions, are these popular and can they be bought on-line? Do they generate much cash?

Surprisingly popular, if we have a half decent summer. We are in a touristy area. They can't be bought on-line. That came about after an awful lot of deliberation. How much they generate is subject to the vagaries of the weather and financial climate.
 

steve2

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With regard to club committees I spent over 25 years on club committees ranging from general committee member chairman to treasurer and I can tell you it can be a pretty thankless task. What ever you do isn’t right, there are always those that think they can do it better but never offer their services.
Many clubs will end up folding through lack of help not lack of members.
 
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