For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

jasonbean1

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if the petition just opens up the debate on the overall state of our rivers and gets anglers better educated and more willing to be involved in river conservation then that's a good thing. if people just sign it and think i've done my bit then nothing is gained.
 

Peter Jacobs

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Unless the law can be changed due to public pressure, petition, new knowledge....

Even at 100k signatures all it will accomplish is to raise a debate and not even in Parliament but only in the Westminster Hall and even then MP's attendance is only voluntary.


The chances of altering the law are slim to none and slim left town.


Can you imagine the outcry from Joe Public against any move that might harm those charming furry little critters that the average Joe or Jill just love to watch frolicking?
 

thecrow

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Even at 100k signatures all it will accomplish is to raise a debate and not even in Parliament but only in the Westminster Hall and even then MP's attendance is only voluntary.


The chances of altering the law are slim to none and slim left town.


Can you imagine the outcry from Joe Public against any move that might harm those charming furry little critters that the average Joe or Jill just love to watch frolicking?

Which just goes to show that the government don't give a toss about the environment doesn't it?


And what are average Joe or Jill doing about the state of our rivers (their drinking water supply) I don't care what Joe or Jill think of me they haven't a clue what goes on all they know is what is fed to them by biased programmes such as spring watch.
 

Peter Jacobs

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Which just goes to show that the government don't give a toss about the environment doesn't it?


And what are average Joe or Jill doing about the state of our rivers (their drinking water supply) I don't care what Joe or Jill think of me they haven't a clue what goes on all they know is what is fed to them by biased programmes such as spring watch.

There is much to do on behalf of our rivers, I just don't think that these sort of petitions are the answer, especially ones that are badly worded, poorly constructed, lack specificity and in fact are asking for measures that already exist.
 

thecrow

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There is much to do on behalf of our rivers, I just don't think that these sort of petitions are the answer, especially ones that are badly worded, poorly constructed, lack specificity and in fact are asking for measures that already exist.


As so me other members have pointed out there is nothing yet released as to what none lethal methods are meant by the petition, without knowing what they are how can you say they already exist?
 

Peter Jacobs

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Because non lethal means already exist by fencing and by removal and release outside if a fenced fishery.

Personally i wont sign a petition until I can see exactly what it is requesting.
 

108831

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But Peter,that doesn't protect any river,which is what most of the furore is about(even though many lakes are severely damaged by otters too),as has been stated earlier,anglers only care about their venues and often don't believe others misfortune if their own venues aren't badly hit,I haven't got a clue what the solutions are to otter predation,or our rivers other woes,but as usual our people in power,big business etc will ignore the problem,as it must not effect the profit margins and if they don't take notice/interest,sadly very little can save our waterways...
 

thecrow

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Because non lethal means already exist by fencing and by removal and release outside if a fenced fishery.

Personally i wont sign a petition until I can see exactly what it is requesting.


Peter you keep saying that removing from inside a fenced fishery and releasing outside of the fishery is none lethal control, this after the otter doing god knows what damage inside the fence to stocks while the fishery owner has to stand by and watch their stocks killed by the otter that he cannot even chase away for fear of prosecution How does this control otter numbers ? ............... As has been said earlier there are only 5 licenced trappers in the whole of the country, by the time action is taken (have you looked at the application paperwork to allow this?) the fishery could be ruined it is not a swift process ........ This is just one section of the licence rules from NE,


20. If a trapped otter is a lactating female, in order to avoid the risk that she is separated from dependent young within the fishery, she must be released at the point of capture within the fence surrounding the fishery. Trapping must stop and Natural England contacted for advice. This Condition does not apply if it is confirmed that dependent cubs are located outside of the fishery.

It shows that in certain circumstances the otter within a fenced fishery is to be allowed to continue to kill stocks that are owned by the fishery until any young inside the fishery are weaned and then what? there will be even more otters inside the fence that are allowed to carry on killing stocks (if there are any left) and the fishery owner can do nothing but watch his business and possibly their livelihood ruined.

Imo this is not control, it does nothing to control numbers, it does nothing to control otters on rivers and imo it does nothing to help fishery owners stop their fisheries from being ruined.

Before you come back and say that the fishery owner should have fenced the fishery, do you really think that most fishery owners can afford to fence their fisheries to the standard require by NE? grants are finite with the Trust saying that up to 20 projects will be funded its a none committal figure that covers them if they don't reach 20. And remember this money is from our licence tax doled out to the T rust by the very people that were involved in this debacle from the beginning. The money available is not just for otter fencing either it cover predation by birds.

Fish protection and predation management
Up to 20 projects will be funded for work such as installation of otter-proof fencing and measures to combat over-predation of fish stocks by fish-eating birds. Awards in excess of £5,000 will be considered where the applicant is able to commit a comparable amount of match-funding


As you can see from the above if fencing costs over £5000 the fishery owner has to be able to match that figure, do you think that an owner who has to replace stock killed by otters will have that sort of money because I don't.

Control it is not.
 
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Peter Jacobs

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What is cheaper then Graham funding full fencing or paying fir volunteers to attend the course?

The cost of fencing runs at about £15 per metre, now, compare that cost with the cost of restocking and the fencing soon clearly becomes the best option. Then consider that the restocking will probably be an ongoing prospect if you don't fence the fishery.
remember too that a grant may well be available and if a commercial fishery then the costs are most likely tax deductible.

Wildlife Fencing :: Otter...
 
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The bad one

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Then nothing is achieved, how do you know that the otter removed from inside the fence is "within its territory" it could be a new kid on the block in another otters territory, what you have posted is an assumption.



If you have no axe to grind why not use the title of the organisation, they don't look like head cases to me they look more like anglers trying to do something that they and thousands of others see as a problem to me while other scoff from the side lines, No one and I mean no one knows what the solution to the problems caused by otters will be, and if you will forgive me your stance of not being prepared to stand by and well no need to quote the rest is rather arrogant, have you a mandate from anglers that don't support the petition? I don't know where the "otters will eat your children" comment is from, its certainly hasn't come from any of the petition organisers as far as I know, what was said by SP was that something needs to be done before a child gets bitten, are you totally sure that couldn't happen? I have seen video of an otter running down a street, could have been running because of fear and a frightened animal can be a dangerous one.



I doubt that was a serious comment as Lol Breakspear is no fool, he would realise what damage could be done to the petition by such a comment. Iirc its the PAG that would like a cull not the Barbel Society.


I am prepared to wait for those to be published, the fact that it was said before the petition is testament to the fact that they have something in mind, I am happy that it has nothing to do with killing otters, others it seems are also prepared to wait and see. If they are not feasible and the petition doesn't achieve its aim then it doesn't but to fail after trying is imo better than not trying at all*

Then nothing is achieved, how do you know that the otter removed from inside the fence is "within its territory" it could be a new kid on the block in another otters territory, what you have posted is an assumption.
Of course it could be an assumption, an educated one based on over 20 years of studying otters, unlike yours of course! What evidence there is so far (which you had no clue about until I corrected youabout the nonsense you were spouting), of removed animals, indicates the sameanimal a big marked male (a persistent offender), due to gates being left openby anglers and getting back in after dark. Suggests that the assumption is correct, unless of course you can provide a shred of evidence to the contrary,rather than the usual wild speculations you write.


If you have no axe to grind why not use the title of the organisation they don't look like head cases to me they look more like anglers trying to do something that they and thousands of others see as a problem to me while other scoff from the side lines, the problems caused by otters will be….
Because they are bullsh!ting those anglers by not telling them the true agenda they want and that’s a cull of Red Data list highly protected animal. And that is not honest and is not right! And would all of those signing support that course of action ?


No one and I mean no one knows what the solution to……..
Wrong there’s evidence from elsewhere on the European mainland where otters were never lost that shows how they have coexisted with their fish stocks for 10,000 year in Sweden, Norway, Finland and they are still lands full of fish many growing to larger specimen sizes than we have here.

……. rather arrogant have you a mandate from anglers that don't support the petition? ……..
Well that will be two of us then, as I’ve joined your long running club!
Like you it’s “my” opinion and no I don’t have a mandate and nor do you, the BS has some of one (between 1-2% of those buying a licence) but that’s not you is it? And as yet I’m not aware that there’s a counter petition running to the Bullsh1t’s one. But I can assure you, I will be making a counter submission to Government, pointing out the shortcomings of this ridiculous petition that for sure. It is not in my name and never will be!


…don't know where the "otters will eat your children" comment is from, its certainly hasn't come from any of the petition organisers as far as I know, what was said by SP was that something needs to be done before a child gets bitten, are you totally sure that couldn't happen? I have seen video of an otter running down a street, could have been running because of fear and a frightened animal can be a dangerous one.
Clearly you haven’t read what he wrote elsewhere or you’d have quoted it in full, and are trying to blag and bolster your case, making it up as you go!
No one can say definitively whether something will happen or not, all that can be done is base it on how many times it happened previously and work out a risk assessment for how likely it will happen in the future. So how many people and particularly children have been attack by otters ever, given the Bullsh1t Society claims they are out completely out of control? Well that would be never in living memory and rarer than Rockinghorse sh!t!


The only otter running down a street on the net I can find is the one in Manchester City Centre caught on CCTV very early in the morning. A city I happen to know something about and the wildlife that frequents it, as I’ve lived here all my life and know personally many of its amateur and professional naturalists, ecologists, etc that study its flora and fauna. That otter attacked no one, has never been seen again and is likely to be a transient animal that came off the Rochdale Canal 30 yards away from where it was filmed.


I doubt that was a serious comment as Loll Breakspear is no fool, he would realise what damage could be done to the petition by such a comment. Iirc its the PAG that would like a cull not the Barbel Society
Clearly not that bright really!
You may doubt it but that’s what he wrote on a serious thread to a serious comment to him. So he makes light and treats it as a laugh, a serious thread because that’s what you are implying and sign a petition of person that does that. Covertly and hiding your real aim of wanting a highly protected red date list species culling is nothing to treat lightly or to have a laugh about.

I am prepared to wait for those to be published,the fact that it was said before the petition is testament to the fact that they have something in mind, I am happy that it has nothing to do with killing otters, others it seems are also prepared to wait and see. If they arenot feasible and the petition doesn't achieve its aim then it doesn't but to fail after trying is imo better than not trying at all.
I’m sure you are as I’m sure they’ll at some point think of something none-lethal to come out with The words “Gone off half-cooked comes to mind.”


 

thecrow

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Of course it could be an assumption, an educated one based on over 20 years of studying otters, unlike yours of course! What evidence there is so far (which you had no clue about until I corrected youabout the nonsense you were spouting), of removed animals, indicates the sameanimal a big marked male (a persistent offender), due to gates being left openby anglers and getting back in after dark. Suggests that the assumption is correct, unless of course you can provide a shred of evidence to the contrary,rather than the usual wild speculations you write.



Because they are bullsh!ting those anglers by not telling them the true agenda they want and that’s a cull of Red Data list highly protected animal. And that is not honest and is not right! And would all of those signing support that course of action ?



Wrong there’s evidence from elsewhere on the European mainland where otters were never lost that shows how they have coexisted with their fish stocks for 10,000 year in Sweden, Norway, Finland and they are still lands full of fish many growing to larger specimen sizes than we have here.


Well that will be two of us then, as I’ve joined your long running club!
Like you it’s “my” opinion and no I don’t have a mandate and nor do you, the BS has some of one (between 1-2% of those buying a licence) but that’s not you is it? And as yet I’m not aware that there’s a counter petition running to the Bullsh1t’s one. But I can assure you, I will be making a counter submission to Government, pointing out the shortcomings of this ridiculous petition that for sure. It is not in my name and never will be!



Clearly you haven’t read what he wrote elsewhere or you’d have quoted it in full, and are trying to blag and bolster your case, making it up as you go!
No one can say definitively whether something will happen or not, all that can be done is base it on how many times it happened previously and work out a risk assessment for how likely it will happen in the future. So how many people and particularly children have been attack by otters ever, given the Bullsh1t Society claims they are out completely out of control? Well that would be never in living memory and rarer than Rockinghorse sh!t!


The only otter running down a street on the net I can find is the one in Manchester City Centre caught on CCTV very early in the morning. A city I happen to know something about and the wildlife that frequents it, as I’ve lived here all my life and know personally many of its amateur and professional naturalists, ecologists, etc that study its flora and fauna. That otter attacked no one, has never been seen again and is likely to be a transient animal that came off the Rochdale Canal 30 yards away from where it was filmed.



Clearly not that bright really!
You may doubt it but that’s what he wrote on a serious thread to a serious comment to him. So he makes light and treats it as a laugh, a serious thread because that’s what you are implying and sign a petition of person that does that. Covertly and hiding your real aim of wanting a highly protected red date list species culling is nothing to treat lightly or to have a laugh about.


I’m sure you are as I’m sure they’ll at some point think of something none-lethal to come out with The words “Gone off half-cooked comes to mind.”




You know I am heartily sick of your constant insults on your posts, you are without doubt the most rude person I have encountered on this forum and I am not the only one that thinks it either considering the PMs I have had about your rudeness, I could sink to your level but wont as I don't need to insult all and sundry to put my side of an argument forward and to that end I will place you on my ignore list.
 

Peter Jacobs

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"non-lethal means of control of the Otter"

Okay, let's look at one in particular that has been mooted elsewhere . . .

Would those on here who signed this petition have done so had one of the methods been the forced neutering of adult otters when tapped or targeted?

Personally, I'd not endorse this at all . . . . . how about you?
 

thecrow

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"non-lethal means of control of the Otter"

Okay, let's look at one in particular that has been mooted elsewhere . . .

Would those on here who signed this petition have done so had one of the methods been the forced neutering of adult otters when tapped or targeted?

Personally, I'd not endorse this at all . . . . . how about you?


Forced ? I doubt they would volunteer for it Peter but yes I think this is an acceptable method of controlling numbers.
 

108831

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The £50,000 figure I quoted earlier for otter fencing Biggleswade and Hitchin daa is an incorrect figure, I talked to the treasurer today and it was over £60,000,apparently the club would have folded if the big carp on their waters were lost,thus losing season tickets and night memberships,my worries are that clubs will give up their river water when nobody fishes it as they deteriorate further(and deteriorate they definitely are),the Thames has sadly had many waters lost to angling above Oxford(not due to otters I don't think).
 
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