For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter
- Thread starter cockneybob
- Start date
Moderator hat: Off i.e. personal comment . . . .
Let me kick off by stating that I would far rather have never seen the reintroduction of the Otter into our rivers without firstly having done a lot of research in cooperation with the relative angling bodies and clubs
That said, and understood, I have more than a little difficulty with this petition for the basic reason that:
We already have non lethal methods available to us.
There are even grants available to erect otter-proof fencing and there is a licence available to remove and relocate otter who persistently attack a venue.
Furthermore, I think this is a dangerous move and one that could easily set anglers on a collision course with the general public who only see a furry little critter that they think is "cute" and it could backfire splendidly.
For those reasons I'll not be signing the petition I'm afraid.
Moderator hat: Back on . . . . .
Let me kick off by stating that I would far rather have never seen the reintroduction of the Otter into our rivers without firstly having done a lot of research in cooperation with the relative angling bodies and clubs
That said, and understood, I have more than a little difficulty with this petition for the basic reason that:
We already have non lethal methods available to us.
There are even grants available to erect otter-proof fencing and there is a licence available to remove and relocate otter who persistently attack a venue.
Furthermore, I think this is a dangerous move and one that could easily set anglers on a collision course with the general public who only see a furry little critter that they think is "cute" and it could backfire splendidly.
For those reasons I'll not be signing the petition I'm afraid.
Moderator hat: Back on . . . . .
thecrow
Well-known member
Well I have signed it.
The none lethal methods already available to anglers are nothing more than a joke, a fishery needs to be decimated by otters before any permission is given for the animals to be trapped and moved elsewhere . That solves nothing it merely moves the problem onto somewhere else.
Otter fencing grants? how can the rivers where the otter has destroyed the fishing be fenced? yes I am aware that somerivers have and indeed do support a population of otters and have done for many years.
Perhaps if through this campaign the public were made more aware of the damage done to all riverine creatures they will slowly come to realise that its not just fish that are suffering but other protected creatures as well.
The none lethal methods already available to anglers are nothing more than a joke, a fishery needs to be decimated by otters before any permission is given for the animals to be trapped and moved elsewhere . That solves nothing it merely moves the problem onto somewhere else.
Otter fencing grants? how can the rivers where the otter has destroyed the fishing be fenced? yes I am aware that somerivers have and indeed do support a population of otters and have done for many years.
Perhaps if through this campaign the public were made more aware of the damage done to all riverine creatures they will slowly come to realise that its not just fish that are suffering but other protected creatures as well.
john r stockburn
Well-known member
non lethal is a joke because when and if they get moved there are others waiting to take their place
hit them with a .243 and the problem is solved
my son and I have video footage of the "nice little fury animals" wiping out 150 ducks on our shoot , no one gives a rats ar5e
I know for a fact they have taken new born lambs but as yet have not got video evidence to support my claim
I also have footage of otters sharing a badger sett
there are too many to just shuffle around the country
a more permanent means of control and rehabilitation is needed
Neil Maidment
Moderator
Parts of my "home" river, the Dorset Stour, have been ravaged and decimated by Otters.
But, in that form, the petition will certainly not have my signature. I would far rather support The Predation Action Group and their more measured and politically savvy methods of finding a solution to one of UK angling's major issues.
As recently as November 2017 The Barbel Society declared their support for the actions and direction of the PAG. They now appear to have changed their minds.
The following is part of a very recent FB post from Tim Paisley (recent Chairman of PAG) which sets out the direction and aims of the group.
"After many years of soul-searching late last year the seasoned campaigners on the PAG board agreed to harden their stance and seek the right to the lethal control of otters in extreme individual circumstances which warrant such a measure (farmer's rights).
Such a right is years away, if it ever happens, but no can can argue against the fact that predation is having a serious impact on the ecology, the rural economy, and that our fisheries are suffering just as seriously as other areas of the ecology which are being impacted.
Otters are just part of the problem, but a serious one for carp and specialist anglers, riparian owners, landowners, fish farmers and day ticket and syndicate waters."
and
"..meeting between the PAG and some of the specimen organisations, and groups in Northampton last November following an approach from the Barbel Society declaring their (as it turns out, possibly unofficial) support for the PAG. As a result of the meeting it was hoped there would be some sort of unification of specialist anglers behind the efforts of the PAG for added strength."
But, in that form, the petition will certainly not have my signature. I would far rather support The Predation Action Group and their more measured and politically savvy methods of finding a solution to one of UK angling's major issues.
As recently as November 2017 The Barbel Society declared their support for the actions and direction of the PAG. They now appear to have changed their minds.
The following is part of a very recent FB post from Tim Paisley (recent Chairman of PAG) which sets out the direction and aims of the group.
"After many years of soul-searching late last year the seasoned campaigners on the PAG board agreed to harden their stance and seek the right to the lethal control of otters in extreme individual circumstances which warrant such a measure (farmer's rights).
Such a right is years away, if it ever happens, but no can can argue against the fact that predation is having a serious impact on the ecology, the rural economy, and that our fisheries are suffering just as seriously as other areas of the ecology which are being impacted.
Otters are just part of the problem, but a serious one for carp and specialist anglers, riparian owners, landowners, fish farmers and day ticket and syndicate waters."
and
"..meeting between the PAG and some of the specimen organisations, and groups in Northampton last November following an approach from the Barbel Society declaring their (as it turns out, possibly unofficial) support for the PAG. As a result of the meeting it was hoped there would be some sort of unification of specialist anglers behind the efforts of the PAG for added strength."
The bad one
Well-known member
I won't be signing it EVER! These People would be dangerous if they had a brain to think with 
I'm a celeb angler so I must be right..... Err no you are not!
The Wildlife groups will EAT angling alive and shi* them out as scat!
I'm a celeb angler so I must be right..... Err no you are not!The Wildlife groups will EAT angling alive and shi* them out as scat!
jasonbean1
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2010
- Messages
- 953
- Reaction score
- 0
I signed it even though I don't agree with it and its not well worded or possibly even thought out. as an angler I don't want to see otters on my river because I know what they do and that's not good for my fishing.
however I do like to see them...and would not want to cause them any harm.
we are where we are with them and there's no going back but if this petition highlights anything in anyway the problems we have on our rivers to anyone that may be able to help than that's a good thing.
I met Graham Scholey(MBE for his work with otters) many years ago and had a good chat with him as we walked the river Cherwell which is one of the rivers named in the petition and one of the first rivers to be impacted heavily by the returning otters and he said anglers will have to get used to fewer larger fish as that is the natural order not what anglers were used to before and basically anglers need to ensure there rivers are well looked after...which ultimately there not.
fortunately I like to fish for all species and in truth the otter petition is about barbel and carp as the Cherwell still has plenty of chub, roach, dace and bream with the odd barbel I'm ok with it even if Lawrence Breakspeare(barbel society)wants to re-ash old ill informed news.
however I do like to see them...and would not want to cause them any harm.
we are where we are with them and there's no going back but if this petition highlights anything in anyway the problems we have on our rivers to anyone that may be able to help than that's a good thing.
I met Graham Scholey(MBE for his work with otters) many years ago and had a good chat with him as we walked the river Cherwell which is one of the rivers named in the petition and one of the first rivers to be impacted heavily by the returning otters and he said anglers will have to get used to fewer larger fish as that is the natural order not what anglers were used to before and basically anglers need to ensure there rivers are well looked after...which ultimately there not.
fortunately I like to fish for all species and in truth the otter petition is about barbel and carp as the Cherwell still has plenty of chub, roach, dace and bream with the odd barbel I'm ok with it even if Lawrence Breakspeare(barbel society)wants to re-ash old ill informed news.
steve2
Well-known member
I have signed it.
What a strange group we are for years we say something must be done about fish predators.
Then when someone puts forward an idea those same people are against it.
Not being the most intelligent man alive can someone please explain what is wrong with the wording on the petition?
Incidentally animal welfare and other groups are already eating us alive.
What a strange group we are for years we say something must be done about fish predators.
Then when someone puts forward an idea those same people are against it.
Not being the most intelligent man alive can someone please explain what is wrong with the wording on the petition?
Incidentally animal welfare and other groups are already eating us alive.
Sadly, it’s not the poor old otters fault for the lack of fish in our rivers, and lakes.
There should be enough to go around so wild creatures can thrive in a natural environment. Fishing waters that hold precious carp stocks, should be able to get grants for fencing in my humble view. If I see an otter these days while fishing I have very mixed emotion, but I would never sign the death of any wild creature just to satisfy my own pleasure.
Rich.
There should be enough to go around so wild creatures can thrive in a natural environment. Fishing waters that hold precious carp stocks, should be able to get grants for fencing in my humble view. If I see an otter these days while fishing I have very mixed emotion, but I would never sign the death of any wild creature just to satisfy my own pleasure.
Rich.
thecrow
Well-known member
thecrow
Well-known member
I don't understand your reasoning, if they have moved away from pushing for lethal control to something that may be more achievable isn't that just good sense?
thecrow
Well-known member
On any petition such as this there is only so much wording allowed so to fully explain the petition would be impossible, this has been explained on the FB page concerned with the petition. It has also been said that a fuller explanation will follow.
Your comment about moaning but doing nothing other than complaining about those that are trying to do something is spot on.
mikench
Well-known member
I remain undecided! I am a great fan of nature and whilst it is cruel( to us) it does generally work to maintain a balance , not necessarily harmonious , between species, predator and prey! Human attempts to interfere rarely turn out well for reasons I have enunciated in other posts.
I have no doubt that otters do kill mammals other than fish and indiscriminately! However they are indigenous and amongst other things keep mink in check which also predate fish, birds, water voles and many other species! Mink are a nuisance and not indigenous .
Man cannot complain about animal greed and cruelty with any iota of the moral high ground!
A fishery owner however must be allowed to preserve his stock from predators just like a farmer by all means available! If otters remain a protected species then his losses should be compensated for. Just imagine if we had lions, tigers or crocodiles!
I have no doubt that otters do kill mammals other than fish and indiscriminately! However they are indigenous and amongst other things keep mink in check which also predate fish, birds, water voles and many other species! Mink are a nuisance and not indigenous .
Man cannot complain about animal greed and cruelty with any iota of the moral high ground!
A fishery owner however must be allowed to preserve his stock from predators just like a farmer by all means available! If otters remain a protected species then his losses should be compensated for. Just imagine if we had lions, tigers or crocodiles!
Steve Pope
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2000
- Messages
- 5,461
- Reaction score
- 1
Dear FM members,
As someone who has enjoyed a strong relationship with FM and is instrumental in the publication of the petition I thought I would say something on here.
The main point of it is to mobilise the rank and file so that we can add weight to the common cause.
It isn’t quite as easy as one would think to get the wording so precise that every one would agree but it’s not far off.
It would be nice if Anglers could put aside their own prejudices and see the bigger picture.
We are associated with PAG, I had a long conversation with Tony Gibson last night, we are working in tandem.
I’m pleased people like the Crow have got it, so too have 6000 others and that figure will grow by the time the petition finishes.
All the best and please sign and give us your support.
Steve
As someone who has enjoyed a strong relationship with FM and is instrumental in the publication of the petition I thought I would say something on here.
The main point of it is to mobilise the rank and file so that we can add weight to the common cause.
It isn’t quite as easy as one would think to get the wording so precise that every one would agree but it’s not far off.
It would be nice if Anglers could put aside their own prejudices and see the bigger picture.
We are associated with PAG, I had a long conversation with Tony Gibson last night, we are working in tandem.
I’m pleased people like the Crow have got it, so too have 6000 others and that figure will grow by the time the petition finishes.
All the best and please sign and give us your support.
Steve
cattyfatty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 133
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm all for doing something in way to protect fish stocks ,i sign up and got my Mrs too
Doing nothing is not the right way going about , will get people who have a good moan
As for fisheries/clubs waters have had years to sort out and save to protect there fish stocks, we knew the numbers where growing and doing nothing is not helping ..
As business you only got yourself to blame really..
Rivers are harder to protect and this is where the non lethal means could work.
Fisheries could put out side the waters a pond just for otter instead of tying to get through the fence
Doing nothing is not the right way going about , will get people who have a good moan
As for fisheries/clubs waters have had years to sort out and save to protect there fish stocks, we knew the numbers where growing and doing nothing is not helping ..
As business you only got yourself to blame really..
Rivers are harder to protect and this is where the non lethal means could work.
Fisheries could put out side the waters a pond just for otter instead of tying to get through the fence
I'll do a bit of googling around first, but I'm inclined to sign.
The idea of a natural predator/prey balance in nature is right, but perhaps needs to be questioned when we have proved ourselves capable of unbalancing the environment so quickly and drastically. When you have huge colonies of voracious seabirds resident in river valleys and gravel pits at the furthest point from the sea, it's hard to talk about a natural balance; whole waters can be emptied and species virtually disappear. Many of my local waters are a long long way from being balanced, and the whole situation could be called "unnatural". It needs managing, not leaving to nature to sort out.
Of course it's not the otters' fault, or the cormorants', but the argument is not that they're "bad" - it's that their uncontrolled numbers are detrimental to the variety we want in the system.
There are wildlife groups that, unfortunately for us, see fish as little more than items in a food chain that supports the creatures they are more interested in. I'm not sure we lose anything by making the case for protecting fish.
I take the OP's point that the occasion calls for anglers to petition together rather than debate alternative tactics.
The idea of a natural predator/prey balance in nature is right, but perhaps needs to be questioned when we have proved ourselves capable of unbalancing the environment so quickly and drastically. When you have huge colonies of voracious seabirds resident in river valleys and gravel pits at the furthest point from the sea, it's hard to talk about a natural balance; whole waters can be emptied and species virtually disappear. Many of my local waters are a long long way from being balanced, and the whole situation could be called "unnatural". It needs managing, not leaving to nature to sort out.
Of course it's not the otters' fault, or the cormorants', but the argument is not that they're "bad" - it's that their uncontrolled numbers are detrimental to the variety we want in the system.
There are wildlife groups that, unfortunately for us, see fish as little more than items in a food chain that supports the creatures they are more interested in. I'm not sure we lose anything by making the case for protecting fish.
I take the OP's point that the occasion calls for anglers to petition together rather than debate alternative tactics.
The bad one
Well-known member
The “You’re with US or You’re against US” plea Steve! Then I’m against you Steve!
Angling, including the BS, has provided no Scientifically Proven Evidence whatsoever to back up its case. It’s used pseudoscience, anecdotes, myth and prejudice to attempt to bolster its very weak case. Totally failing to recognise the ecology of the freshwater environment, past present and future and how it expands and contracts. Failed miserably to investigate any other potential causes of the decline in riverine species in certain rivers. No preferring instead to place the blame on otters for most if not all the ills of the loss of riverine stocks.
These and many more aspects will be challenged by govt and others and be shown for what they are, and angling again will be looking like idiots and loonies, with little support from the public at large….. Support angling can ill afford to lose Steve!
As I wrote above Steve Angling will get EATEN alive and shi* out as scat!
So no not in my name is this petition or the stand being taken by the self-appointed PAG.
Angling, including the BS, has provided no Scientifically Proven Evidence whatsoever to back up its case. It’s used pseudoscience, anecdotes, myth and prejudice to attempt to bolster its very weak case. Totally failing to recognise the ecology of the freshwater environment, past present and future and how it expands and contracts. Failed miserably to investigate any other potential causes of the decline in riverine species in certain rivers. No preferring instead to place the blame on otters for most if not all the ills of the loss of riverine stocks.
These and many more aspects will be challenged by govt and others and be shown for what they are, and angling again will be looking like idiots and loonies, with little support from the public at large….. Support angling can ill afford to lose Steve!
As I wrote above Steve Angling will get EATEN alive and shi* out as scat!
So no not in my name is this petition or the stand being taken by the self-appointed PAG.
The wording is imprecise and fails to construct a logical argument, remembering that the purpose of a petition is to attain a full discussion at government level or at least an official response once 10k signatures have been attained.
It call for "non lethal" methods which we, as anglers, ALREADY HAVE in the form of fencing and the ability to carefully remove persistent Otters from a fishery to be relocated elsewhere.
It follows that unless we can propose solid and science-based alternatives then the best we might achieve is a non-interested nod from the powers that be, thereby wasting a potentially.
rayner
Well-known member
I will never sign petitions unless accompanied with a good reason, this one is no different without explanation it's a non starter. Explain non lethal means please.
How the hell can non lethal means control a wild animal. What alternative to death could ever work.
Perhaps we should give them a stern talking to
Tell us what any non lethal methods are and that may persuade me.
How the hell can non lethal means control a wild animal. What alternative to death could ever work.
Perhaps we should give them a stern talking to
Tell us what any non lethal methods are and that may persuade me.
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)
Senior Member
I will never sign petitions unless accompanied with a good reason, this one is no different without explanation it's a non starter. Explain non lethal means please.
How the hell can non lethal means control a wild animal. What alternative to death could ever work.
Perhaps we should give them a stern talking to
Tell us what any non lethal methods are and that may persuade me.
The introduction of natural predators such as indigenous wolves and wild cats should do it. A bit like controlling slugs in your garden by introducing toads.
Maybe the people in charge are thinking of doing that sort of thing.