When does an invasive species become an accepted part of the Eco system?

[Philip]

rt chipping away myself.
Think you will need to chip deep, carp lived in Asia back then.

Care to expand on this ...

 

[mikench]

Heck I am tempted to go down to Lyme Regis and start chipping away myself.

Now no bunking off school Philip!

 

[dicky123]

Firstly returning none native crayfish is illegal and you are doing the water it lived in no favours by returning them with some misguided sense of not helping to get rid of them.

Zander do not kill for fun a ridiculous notion put about many years ago by those that were against their introduction to places other than Woburn, the only creature I know of that kills for fun are humans.

Carp have been here in one form or another for many thousands of years, to call them "invasive gluttonous blobs" is frankly an insult to those that fish for them without whom waters would be lost to angling, many more tackle shops would have gone to the wall and there would have been less in the form of angling innovation.

Where do you get the information that "most countries consider them trash fish" Carp fishing is possibly the fastest growing sector of angling while in other disciplines numbers are falling.

"Live in sewage like water" have you ever witnessed the results of sewage pollution? history shows that no fish are able to survive in such water.

How are Carp "like catfish"? totally different in both looks and habits with catfish not only being a predator but also scavengers of dead and dying fish.

To be absolutely frank I am sick to the back teeth of the anti carp posts on here, I don't like Chub I think they are stupid creatures that are to easy to catch but others like fishing for them so I have no problems on that front.

I think you are just a wind up merchant after bites from members but I think that you will find that others that are no longer here have tried and failed and the only reason I have replied is boredom as world superbikes have finished and the football hasn't started, how do you feel about invasive species of the human kind?

With respect Sam, in some parts of America carp are killed in the name of being Trash fish. It's only recently that anglers see them as a challenge, and its changing slowly. They still shot them with bows, and cannot return them in many Bass lakes or Rivers.

 

[lutra]

Care to expand on this ...

What's to expand? At the end of the last ice age carp were not in the uk. They were brought here thousands of years later from Asia by man. So not naturally native to here today.

 

[dicky123]

It's not only fish that become native, many plants now like Himalayan Balsam are chocking many of our own wild plants, but are seen by many as not a problem. What's the plant that can grow through concrete?

 

[Philip]

What's to expand? At the end of the last ice age carp were not in the uk. They were brought here thousands of years later from Asia by man. So not naturally native to here today.

well perhaps you could start with how many "thousands of years later" you think they were brought here by man from Asia...rough number will do ...

 

[thecrow]

Are you talking about a different river Trent? Of course it meanders, but it largely flows in a north easterly direction. If it flowed south it would have a tough time emptying into the Humber estuary as it does. Barbel are reputed to have only been present in the rivers that drained to the east of the country. Essentially, that means anything that eventually drains into the Humber, The Wash or the Thames Estuary.
It's fairly dubious if they were present in the likes of the Severn, Ribble, and others, prior to the last century.

I don't know if you have read the piece from Wiki Chris but I would tend to believe the work of cartographers on the direction that the Trent flows in, yes there is a point when it flows mainly north east having previously flowed in a southerly direction for quiet a while.

Here is a short piece from Wiki again

The Trent rises on the Staffordshire moorlands near the village of Biddulph Moor, from a number of sources including the Trent Head Well. It is then joined by other small streams to form the Head of Trent, which flows south, to the only reservoir along its course at Knypersley. Downstream of the reservoir it passes through Stoke-on-Trent and merges with the Lyme, Fowlea and other brooks that drain the 'six towns' of the Staffordshire Potteries to become the River Trent. On the southern fringes of Stoke, it passes through the landscaped parkland of Trentham Gardens.[11]





Swarkestone Bridge
The river then continues south through the market town of Stone, and after passing the village of Salt, it reaches Great Haywood, where it is spanned by the 16th-century Essex Bridge near Shugborough Hall. At this point the River Sow joins it from Stafford. The Trent now flows south-east past the town of Rugeley until it reaches Kings Bromley where it meets the Blithe. After the confluence with the Swarbourn, it passes Alrewas and reaches Wychnor, where it is crossed by the A38 dual carriageway, which follows the route of the Roman Ryknild Street. The river turns north-east where it is joined by its largest tributary, the Tame (which is at this point actually the larger, though its earlier length shorter) and immediately afterwards by the Mease, creating a larger river that now flows through a broad floodplain.

 

[lutra]

well perhaps you could start with how many "thousands of years later" you think they were brought here by man from Asia...rough number will do ...

well i wasn't around, so you will just have to read like me.

 

[thecrow]

With respect Sam, in some parts of America carp are killed in the name of being Trash fish. It's only recently that anglers see them as a challenge, and its changing slowly. They still shot them with bows, and cannot return them in many Bass lakes or Rivers.

George my name is not Sam, I am at a loss to know how the USA became most countries?

 

[tigger]

It's not only fish that become native, many plants now like Himalayan Balsam are chocking many of our own wild plants, but are seen by many as not a problem. What's the plant that can grow through concrete?

Mares taols one of em.

 

[thecrow]

well i wasn't around, so you will just have to read like me.

I would gladly read as you have if you could point me in the direction of where what/where to read.

 

[Philip]

well i wasn't around, so you will just have to read like me.

I did read and it said the last ice age was only about 10,000 years ago whilst man (tool using man) has been present for close on 1 million years.

I also read that that orginal wild strain of Carp that we know today orginated from the Danube system.

 

[lutra]

I did read and it said the last ice age was only about 10,000 years ago whilst man (tool using man) has been present for close on 1 million years.

I also read that that orginal wild strain of Carp that we know today orginated from the Danube system.

And you found something that says carp have been here in the UK for 10,000 years? NO

Did you find something saying man didn't bring them here? No

Did you find something saying they are naturally native to the UK? No

Stop listening to people like Crow.

 

[sam vimes]

I don't know if you have read the piece from Wiki Chris but I would tend to believe the work of cartographers on the direction that the Trent flows in, yes there is a point when it flows mainly north east having previously flowed in a southerly direction for quiet a while.

Here is a short piece from Wiki again

The Trent rises on the Staffordshire moorlands near the village of Biddulph Moor, from a number of sources including the Trent Head Well. It is then joined by other small streams to form the Head of Trent, which flows south, to the only reservoir along its course at Knypersley. Downstream of the reservoir it passes through Stoke-on-Trent and merges with the Lyme, Fowlea and other brooks that drain the 'six towns' of the Staffordshire Potteries to become the River Trent. On the southern fringes of Stoke, it passes through the landscaped parkland of Trentham Gardens.[11]





Swarkestone Bridge
The river then continues south through the market town of Stone, and after passing the village of Salt, it reaches Great Haywood, where it is spanned by the 16th-century Essex Bridge near Shugborough Hall. At this point the River Sow joins it from Stafford. The Trent now flows south-east past the town of Rugeley until it reaches Kings Bromley where it meets the Blithe. After the confluence with the Swarbourn, it passes Alrewas and reaches Wychnor, where it is crossed by the A38 dual carriageway, which follows the route of the Roman Ryknild Street. The river turns north-east where it is joined by its largest tributary, the Tame (which is at this point actually the larger, though its earlier length shorter) and immediately afterwards by the Mease, creating a larger river that now flows through a broad floodplain.

Graham,
it doesn't matter a toss that relatively small parts of the Trent flow in a southerly direction. The simple fact is that, from source to sea, is a north easterly direction. The vast bulk of the river flows to the east and north. If the Trent genuinely ran in a southerly direction it could not possibly get to the Humber.

 

[thecrow]

Graham,
it doesn't matter a toss that relatively small parts of the Trent flow in a southerly direction. The simple fact is that, from source to sea, is a north easterly direction. The vast bulk of the river flows to the east and north. If the Trent genuinely ran in a southerly direction it could not possibly get to the Humber.

Sorry Chris but are the cartographers wrong? does the Trent not flow south then south east before turning north east? the simple fact is that at times the Trent is not an easterly flowing river.

I don't know where this Barbel are only indigenous to east flowing rivers when there are lots of examples of rivers that do not flow east having indigenous barbel populations.

 

[sam vimes]

Sorry Chris but are the cartographers wrong? does the Trent not flow south then south east before turning north east? the simple fact is that at times the Trent is not an easterly flowing river.

No, it does undoubtedly run southward in parts. However, over it's whole length it runs North East. It has to to get from it's source to the Humber. That it runs in a southerly direction for a relatively small part of its overall length is immaterial. It's the overall direction that's the important bit when it comes to the direction of a river flow. To suggest that the Trent is a southerly flowing river is patently an absolute nonsense.

I know that I can find parts of the Swale that run in a Westerly direction. However, overall, it runs South East.
Likewise, the Ribble runs West with a bit of South. The Severn runs in a generally southern direction. The Thames runs East. The fact that you could find parts of any of them that run in entirely the opposite direction to their general direction is irrelevant.

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I don't know where this Barbel are only indigenous to east flowing rivers when there are lots of examples of rivers that do not flow east having indigenous barbel populations.

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Which are they then? As I've said, plenty of the reading I've done suggests that the Thames catchment, Humber rivers, Wash rivers, some East Anglian rivers and possibly the likes of the Tees, Wear and Tyne are the UK rivers with indigenous barbel populations. Those entering the sea on the south coast, and west coast are more dubious. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that suggests that many of these rivers didn't have barbel present prior to the middle of the last century.
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[thecrow]

Which are they then?

Derbyshire Derwent is one that flows south.

 

[thecrow]

To suggest that the Trent is a southerly flowing river is patently an absolute nonsense

At no time did I suggest that, I did though point out that parts of the trent are south and south east flowing before turning north east.

 

[sam vimes]

At no time did I suggest that, I did though point out that parts of the trent are south and south east flowing before turning north east.

The direction that small parts of a river, or tributary flows is an irrelevance. Where it ends up is the important bit.

Derbyshire Derwent is one that flows south.

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The Derbyshire Derwent is a tributary of the Trent, which might just be a clue as to why it has indigenous barbel in it.
As yet, you've not actually tried to suggest that barbel are indigenous to any river that enters the sea on the south or west coast of Britain.
Because of that, and the fact that I don't believe you are really that daft, I'm getting the distinct impression that you are being deliberately obtuse now, so I'll just leave you to it.

 

[thecrow]

The direction that small parts of a river, or tributary flows is an irrelevance. Where it ends up is the important bit.

The fact remains that the Trent flows south and south east before turning north east, I think its something that we will have to agree to disagree.

I am aware having fished it for a number of years that the Derbyshire Derwent is a tributary of the Trent, it is however a river that is not easterly flowing that has an indigenous population of Barbel.

"As yet, you've not actually tried to suggest that barbel are indigenous to any river that enters the sea on the south or west coast of Britain."........... Nor would I that would just be silly.