When does an invasive species become an accepted part of the Eco system?

[O.C.F.Disorder]

Now this has been bothering me. I think the title is pretty self explanatory nut I will expand slightly.

I will start with crayfish, I do not kill crayfish that end up on my hook. I see no point in killing something that has clearly established its self in the eco system. The small minority of you who fish rivers will have seen parts of crayfish that have been munched by chub, perch etc. there is no getting rid of them so why kill the odd one that pesters my hook?

Then the slightly grayer area of Zander.. I have seen fish that zander have killed for "fun" on numerous occasions yet when I fish for them it doesnt even cross my mind to kill one I have caught. My slaughter of one will not stop them spreading through our waterways so why take a life?

Finally carp. An invasive species that most countries consider to be invasive "trash fish" which you are not allowed to return to the water. Yet we seem to do the opposite?! Dont get me wrong, they are ridiculously fun to have on the end of your line but they literally are invasive gluttonous blobs that can live in sewage like water and spread like wildfire.. Why do we accept them as native? Its not like we are special and they chose us.. they can and do survive all over the world! they are like catfish just with smaller mouths and bellys.. (imo) We have some of the best course fishing in the world yet so many anglers chase carp? its lost on me.

(although I really must admit some of terry hearns stories make me want to quit fishing for everything other than river carp)

 

[mikench]

If we tried to put the clock back we would have no rabbits, Viking and Saxon ancestry or Japanese cars! I jest of course ! Invasive is a term that imlies an adverse influence on our flora, fauna and native wildlife! I will confine myself to species of an aquatic nature! Crayfish cause untold damage to fish stocks through egg and fry predation, our native species and to the geology of the bank! Mitten crabs do the same! I would never return either. I have never caught a Zander but I doubt I would kill it as I am unsure whether its presence is benign or not! Catfish will be worse than carp plus they are hideous! I would not return one to any water save if , heaven forbid, i inadvertently caught one on a commercial!

Ones attitude to fish should be the same as to plants yet poeple still buy rhododendrons but not Japanese knotweed!

The reasons are obvious and we now know better! Sadly poeple do not consider the ecosystem implications of releasing their terrapin, Burmese python or parrot into the wild! Will we ever learn? Put global warming into the equation and one can foresee many more "invasive species" making these hitherto cold and wet islands their home! Believe you me we do not want certain ant, hornet and other insect varieties!

 

[stillwater blue]

When enough anglers enjoy catching them?

Barbel are only indigenous to east flowing rivers, imagine the outcry if there was a cull of barbel on west flowing rivers.

 

[thecrow]

Now this has been bothering me. I think the title is pretty self explanatory nut I will expand slightly.

I will start with crayfish, I do not kill crayfish that end up on my hook. I see no point in killing something that has clearly established its self in the eco system. The small minority of you who fish rivers will have seen parts of crayfish that have been munched by chub, perch etc. there is no getting rid of them so why kill the odd one that pesters my hook?

Then the slightly grayer area of Zander.. I have seen fish that zander have killed for "fun" on numerous occasions yet when I fish for them it doesnt even cross my mind to kill one I have caught. My slaughter of one will not stop them spreading through our waterways so why take a life?

Finally carp. An invasive species that most countries consider to be invasive "trash fish" which you are not allowed to return to the water. Yet we seem to do the opposite?! Dont get me wrong, they are ridiculously fun to have on the end of your line but they literally are invasive gluttonous blobs that can live in sewage like water and spread like wildfire.. Why do we accept them as native? Its not like we are special and they chose us.. they can and do survive all over the world! they are like catfish just with smaller mouths and bellys.. (imo) We have some of the best course fishing in the world yet so many anglers chase carp? its lost on me.

(although I really must admit some of terry hearns stories make me want to quit fishing for everything other than river carp)

Firstly returning none native crayfish is illegal and you are doing the water it lived in no favours by returning them with some misguided sense of not helping to get rid of them.

Zander do not kill for fun a ridiculous notion put about many years ago by those that were against their introduction to places other than Woburn, the only creature I know of that kills for fun are humans.

Carp have been here in one form or another for many thousands of years, to call them "invasive gluttonous blobs" is frankly an insult to those that fish for them without whom waters would be lost to angling, many more tackle shops would have gone to the wall and there would have been less in the form of angling innovation.

Where do you get the information that "most countries consider them trash fish" Carp fishing is possibly the fastest growing sector of angling while in other disciplines numbers are falling.

"Live in sewage like water" have you ever witnessed the results of sewage pollution? history shows that no fish are able to survive in such water.

How are Carp "like catfish"? totally different in both looks and habits with catfish not only being a predator but also scavengers of dead and dying fish.

To be absolutely frank I am sick to the back teeth of the anti carp posts on here, I don't like Chub I think they are stupid creatures that are to easy to catch but others like fishing for them so I have no problems on that front.

I think you are just a wind up merchant after bites from members but I think that you will find that others that are no longer here have tried and failed and the only reason I have replied is boredom as world superbikes have finished and the football hasn't started, how do you feel about invasive species of the human kind?

 

[thecrow]

When enough anglers enjoy catching them?

Barbel are only indigenous to east flowing rivers, imagine the outcry if there was a cull of barbel on west flowing rivers.

Barbel are indigenous to all our rivers as the UK was at one time joined to Europe where all rivers contained Barbel.

 

[stillwater blue]

Barbel are indigenous to all our rivers as the UK was at one time joined to Europe where all rivers contained Barbel.

No, only the East flowing rivers as they where the ones that drained into the river Rhine when the UK was joined to mainland Europe.

 

[mikench]

Graham i just wish that sometimes you would get to the point and say what you mean!:wh

 

[thecrow]

Graham i just wish that sometimes you would get to the point and say what you mean!:wh

I wont use a half ounce lead if a four ounce is needed Mike, I don't see a job in the diplomatic core ever being for me though

 

[no-one in particular]

I wont use a half ounce lead if a four ounce is needed Mike, I don't see a job in the diplomatic core ever being for me though

I dunno, could send you to Brussels for the day see how you get on.

 

[O.C.F.Disorder]

Firstly returning none native crayfish is illegal and you are doing the water it lived in no favours by returning them with some misguided sense of not helping to get rid of them.

Zander do not kill for fun a ridiculous notion put about many years ago by those that were against their introduction to places other than Woburn, the only creature I know of that kills for fun are humans.

Carp have been here in one form or another for many thousands of years, to call them "invasive gluttonous blobs" is frankly an insult to those that fish for them without whom waters would be lost to angling, many more tackle shops would have gone to the wall and there would have been less in the form of angling innovation.

Where do you get the information that "most countries consider them trash fish" Carp fishing is possibly the fastest growing sector of angling while in other disciplines numbers are falling.

"Live in sewage like water" have you ever witnessed the results of sewage pollution? history shows that no fish are able to survive in such water.

How are Carp "like catfish"? totally different in both looks and habits with catfish not only being a predator but also scavengers of dead and dying fish.

To be absolutely frank I am sick to the back teeth of the anti carp posts on here, I don't like Chub I think they are stupid creatures that are to easy to catch but others like fishing for them so I have no problems on that front.

I think you are just a wind up merchant after bites from members but I think that you will find that others that are no longer here have tried and failed and the only reason I have replied is boredom as world superbikes have finished and the football hasn't started, how do you feel about invasive species of the human kind?

Firstly, I am not trying to grind your gears. I'm just trying to share my thoughts and have a discussion/debate. I must admit I do enjoy playing devils advocate but that is just to stimulate discussion. Its kind of like watching football for me, I dont give a rats bottom who scores, I just enjoy someone scoring a goal by using tactics and skill to out maneuver the opponent.. I fish for carp regularly and enjoy their existence, that does not make my question any less valid. I really do apologize if my posts have upset you, I have really enjoyed some of yours.. However if you just want to insult my posts and spread negativity, please clear off.

Anyway :focus:

I understand that putting signal crayfish back isnt exactly the right thing to do and am actually currently in the process of applying for a licence to trap crayfish so I can bring them home and eat them. I refuse to kill something and just bin it.

Im not sure your facts are dot on about zander killing for fun.. I have seen many bream with fatal puncture wounds floating in the canal near me, maybe there is another reason but I struggle to see what? There are various animals that "kill for fun", the most notable of which are Orca (killer whale). Surplus killing - Wikipedia

As for the carp being around for thousands of years, the real number is much less.The Fishing Museum Online - How the carp came to Britain Im not sure why you think the sun shines out of a carps bottom? They are invasive omnivores and will happily east small fish and fish eggs.. Hence how people are able to catch them on lures YouTube My question isnt based on how many people enjoy them or what they have done for angling.. it is solely at what point did we deem them native? and can we expect the same for zander etc. When will we stop culling them? In some (not sure) states in america it is illegal to return carp to the water and people are encouraged to kill as many as possible.. Im very surprised you are not familiar with this

YouTube

 

[tigger]

Maybe some bow fishermen have been targetting bream?.......

 

[O.C.F.Disorder]

Tried to edit and it deleted a crucial sentence and now wont work haha!

Im not sure why you think the sun shines out of a carps bottom? They are invasive omnivores and will happily east small fish and fish eggs.. Hence how people are able to catch them on lures

 

[Molehill]

I presume this thread is not solely about creatures that inhabit our waters? The same principals must apply though, whether UK or worldwide.

Much depends on the impact the invasive species has on native species, they may fit into a niche, they may be in direct conflict or they may result in an indigenous species becoming extinct. And do we have the means and will to eradicate the invader, reverse the wrongs of the past? This is happening all over the world, in many cases the result of our colonialism, introducing British species to other countries and bringing their species back to UK - in hindsight we know better.

I'm involved with 2 invasive species, I do a lot of work with our mid wales red squirrel conservation, we hope to eradicate the grey squirrel to save our native reds, we can have one or the other but not both. Grey squirrels were also introduced into Italy, so ultimately the whole of Europe faces the same problem - in the very long term if no solution is found.

Secondly Himalayan Balsam, we are attempting to eradicate it from our village, it is a hell of a pest in fields and gardens taking acres of land and ultimately the whole Towy river system (we are at the top end, so our seeds effect everything downstream), with help from a fisheries association and NRW (the Welsh EA).

These are just 2 completely different local examples to me. Or should we turn our back on them all, should New Zealand lose much of their incredible native wildlife to introduced predators, or should they try to reverse the wrongs of the past?
So many examples around the world, but personally I think if a native species is endangered by an alien species, then we should do our best to fight back.

 

[thecrow]

However if you just want to insult my posts and spread negativity, please clear off.

Ha Ha you will wait a bloody long time for that to happen pal, your post wasn't at all upsetting for me its just more of the general drivel about Carp that crops up on here from time to time but as you haven't been here long you wouldn't have known that would you?

Oh and your proof that Zander kill for fun is a few puncture marks on some bream made by ????? where is the proof that the punctures were fatal? they could just have been stab marks from Herons, you have no proof, your comparison of the Znder and the Orca is laughable considering the Orca isn't a fish, maybe the fox is the same as a Zander?

I have seen the quality of silver fish fishing improve on more than one water that contains them, the fish that do drop in numbers are other predators as they are competing for the same niche in the waters they live in.

I had no idea that the USA was "most countries" I have no doubt that they would like to be most countries but thankfully they are not, strange though that some British tackle companies have been selling carp gear over there for quiet a few years. I think you might find that its the Asian carp that is despised over there.

Carp have always been indigenous to the Uk ever since the UK was joined to Europe before the last retreat of the ice age circa 10/12000 BC that seems like a very long time to me, because they may have died out after the split doesn't negate the fact that they were once indigenous as was the Woolly Mammoth that is now extinct and is reported to have been extinct 10,000 years ago, rather than ask the question about when something none indigenous becomes accepted you might like to ask yourself how long an animal that was indigenous has to be extinct in the UK before it is viewed as never being indigenous?


"Please clear off" :biggrin-new: :flypig: hilarious.

I don't know what the blanks on your post are because I cant what they are.

 

[thecrow]

No, only the East flowing rivers as they where the ones that drained into the river Rhine when the UK was joined to mainland Europe.

I think that you will find that they are also indigenous to rivers that flow in a southerly direction such as the Trent, it may flow east for the some of its course but from its source it flows all over the place, to save you looking heres a bit from Wiki as you can see it flows in a lot of directions.

The Trent rises on the Staffordshire moorlands near the village of Biddulph Moor, from a number of sources including the Trent Head Well. It is then joined by other small streams to form the Head of Trent, which flows south, to the only reservoir along its course at Knypersley. Downstream of the reservoir it passes through Stoke-on-Trent and merges with the Lyme, Fowlea and other brooks that drain the 'six towns' of the Staffordshire Potteries to become the River Trent. On the southern fringes of Stoke, it passes through the landscaped parkland of Trentham Gardens.[11]





Swarkestone Bridge
The river then continues south through the market town of Stone, and after passing the village of Salt, it reaches Great Haywood, where it is spanned by the 16th-century Essex Bridge near Shugborough Hall. At this point the River Sow joins it from Stafford. The Trent now flows south-east past the town of Rugeley until it reaches Kings Bromley where it meets the Blithe. After the confluence with the Swarbourn, it passes Alrewas and reaches Wychnor, where it is crossed by the A38 dual carriageway, which follows the route of the Roman Ryknild Street. The river turns north-east where it is joined by its largest tributary, the Tame (which is at this point actually the larger, though its earlier length shorter) and immediately afterwards by the Mease, creating a larger river that now flows through a broad floodplain.

 

[stillwater blue]

Thanks Crow, here was I thinking rivers flowed straight like an arrow in just one compass direction

 

[thecrow]

Thanks Crow, here was I thinking rivers flowed straight like an arrow in just one compass direction

That's ok always willing to help a fellow angler :wh

 

[sam vimes]

I think that you will find that they are also indigenous to rivers that flow in a southerly direction such as the Trent, it may flow east for the some of its course but from its source it flows all over the place, to save you looking heres a bit from Wiki as you can see it flows in a lot of directions.

Are you talking about a different river Trent? Of course it meanders, but it largely flows in a north easterly direction. If it flowed south it would have a tough time emptying into the Humber estuary as it does. Barbel are reputed to have only been present in the rivers that drained to the east of the country. Essentially, that means anything that eventually drains into the Humber, The Wash or the Thames Estuary.
It's fairly dubious if they were present in the likes of the Severn, Ribble, and others, prior to the last century.

 

[Philip]

Given their hardiness and adpatability I find it nigh on impossible to accept that Roach, Perch, Pike, Dace and so on where all present in UK waters as the last Ice age retreated & are therefore considered indiginous but a Carp of some discription was not...and remember it only needs one little Carp paddling about in any puddle anywere to make it indiginous.

Interesting to think we could be few rock hammer taps away from someone digging up a fossil Carp and putting to bed once and for all the ridiculous notion that Carp are not indiginous to the UK.

Heck I am tempted to go down to Lyme Regis and start chipping away myself.

 

[lutra]

Given their hardiness and adpatability I find it nigh on impossible to accept that Roach, Perch, Pike, Dace and so on where all present in UK waters as the last Ice age retreated & are therefore considered indiginous but a Carp of some discription was not...and remember it only needs one little Carp paddling about in any puddle anywere to make it indiginous.

Interesting to think we could be few rock hammer taps away from someone digging up a fossil Carp and putting to bed once and for all the ridiculous notion that Carp are not indiginous to the UK.

Heck I am tempted to go down to Lyme Regis and start chipping away myself.

Think you will need to chip deep, carp lived in Asia back then.