Why do so few anglers fish our rivers?!

[silvers]

The Great Ouse is only "screwed" from a Barbel anglers perspective.
If proper specimen chub are what you're after then there can't be many better places.

There are loads of roach through the stretches above bedford, but fish over 12oz have always been scarce on the bits I've fished. Dace in the river go through cycles with max size being about 4 or 5oz for the shoal fish. There have been at least 3 cycles in the last 10 years at Kempston, for example.

It would be a brilliant match fishing river now, but for the weed growth and fact that no-one is prepared to do the walks these days.

 

[tigger]

The Great Ouse is a good example of river (hopefully) in transition but lets be blunt it's been totally screwed of late. There's no doubting Barbel have declined and a big survey a few years back revealed only small pockets of Barbel remained in areas where they were common, Chub too were rare but even more disappointing was the numbers of the other species. The upper river also had pollution recently in Buckingham. These things are cyclical but I fear there's too many smaller rivers struggling mainly due to their diminishing water levels especially in East Anglia and the South East. Pollution Isn't a thing of the past it's just not as regular but it only needs one hit to screw a river for decades

I'd disagree totally though with the assumption that specimen roach suffer as a result of Barbel numbers as they are often found together in most the rivers I fish

I've never seen large roach shoal up with barbel but I have seen them stick with chub of a similar size, especially when the roach are low in numbers, maybe that's why we see so many roach chub hhybrids.
Anything that competes for food has got to have an impact on other species and barbel are much larger and more robust than roach so will have no problem bullying them out of any food sources.
I've actually seen barbel eating the spawn of other barbel as they lay it but i've never seen them eating the spawn of other fish but it stands to reason that they will and because of their sheer size and large appetites they would get through a large ammount if they came across it.
Just seems odd that in the rivers which I have fished since being a kid where no barbel where present had huge shoals of roach etc but once the barbel where introduced and got a foothold the roach numbers dwindled rapidly.
I think grayling are disliked by a lot of game anglers because they too are very prolific and once established can drastically reduce the numbers of other species.

 

[theartist]

I've never seen large roach shoal up with barbel but I have seen them stick with chub of a similar size, especially when the roach are low in numbers, maybe that's why we see so many roach chub hhybrids.
Anything that competes for food has got to have an impact on other species and barbel are much larger and more robust than roach so will have no problem bullying them out of any food sources.
I've actually seen barbel eating the spawn of other barbel as they lay it but i've never seen them eating the spawn of other fish but it stands to reason that they will and because of their sheer size and large appetites they would get through a large ammount if they came across it.
Just seems odd that in the rivers which I have fished since being a kid where no barbel where present had huge shoals of roach etc but once the barbel where introduced and got a foothold the roach numbers dwindled rapidly.
I think grayling are disliked by a lot of game anglers because they too are very prolific and once established can drastically reduce the numbers of other species.

I'm seeing the opposite in that large roach are often seen with the barbel, yes they are often Pushed out in a feeding frenzy when the barbel are on it but they are often in the same spots or at the very least the same area. I would say that 80% of my 2lb plus roach have been from barbel swims, and often caught before the barbel move in big time.

In recent years I've tailored my approach to concentrate more on the roach and there's a few things I've learnt about the big roach and how they feed around barbel, they are far too canny and competitive too miss out, I'd do an article when I got time as the term 'pushed out' I used earlier doesn't do the old big redfins any justice at all

Think it's all cyclical, but if the strain of roach that once grew large are still there then then reason for them not reaching their potential is out there but from my experiences it's defo not barbel.

 

[nottskev]

The niches occupied by different species in different rivers seem to differ in how they relate and resist generalising. It may well be true that in some rivers roach and barbel coexist as has been described. But I recognise more the situation Tigger describes - in two of my local rivers, the rise of barbel coincided almost exactly with the decline of roach. On one, that situation now seem to be reversing. On the other, the barbel have dwindled, but there has been no roach recovery to date, and stretches once prolific for roach, chub and later barbel now offer only a few grayling.

 

[Jelster]

Could it be that 20-30 years ago there was more available access to the rivers, free fishing as youngster? I remember growing up fishing the Darenth as a kid, then the Medway above Allington Lock. It's very hard to find a half decent stretch of river now that is free, and as a kid, you now get your fishing education on commercial lakes.

Get the kids on the Rivers, let them learn how to read it and fish it. If you don't get the younger generation wanting to fish it, they'll be very few of us left in 20 years.

If you are going to have to pay, kids want to catch, and the Carp phenomenon has emerged so that everybody is chasing 5lb + fish. I understand that to keep kids interested they need to catch fish, and it's sometimes quite easy to get them into carp on commercial ponds.

Personally, after 50 years of fishing, I still love working the rivers, although my current local (Colne) is a bit of a mess at the moment. Where I used to catch 2-3lb Chub, the odd Barbel, and decent Roach the fish seem to have disappeared, replaced with very small Roach, Chub & Minnows (God there's thousands of Minnows on the Colne), with the occasional half decent Perch.

 

[tigger]

I'm seeing the opposite in that large roach are often seen with the barbel, yes they are often Pushed out in a feeding frenzy when the barbel are on it but they are often in the same spots or at the very least the same area. I would say that 80% of my 2lb plus roach have been from barbel swims, and often caught before the barbel move in big time.

In recent years I've tailored my approach to concentrate more on the roach and there's a few things I've learnt about the big roach and how they feed around barbel, they are far too canny and competitive too miss out, I'd do an article when I got time as the term 'pushed out' I used earlier doesn't do the old big redfins any justice at all

Think it's all cyclical, but if the strain of roach that once grew large are still there then then reason for them not reaching their potential is out there but from my experiences it's defo not barbel.

The barbel fry grow up with the other species of fish and baby barbel are from what i've seen are aggressive and dominant, so the damage to other species may be done well before the fish grow on to any size?
All just food for thought as none of us realy know what's going on below the surface.

 

[sam vimes]

Could it be that 20-30 years ago there was more available access to the rivers, free fishing as youngster?

Not in my neck of the woods. The stretches of free water of thirty to forty years ago are still free water. However, there's not a great deal of it.

 

[theartist]

The barbel fry grow up with the other species of fish and baby barbel are from what i've seen are aggressive and dominant, so the damage to other species may be done well before the fish grow on to any size?
All just food for thought as none of us realy know what's going on below the surface.

Yeah could also be different in each river, I know roach though have a habit of disappearing in a flash though. Prime examples are the Teme at Ludlow and the Town stretch of the Severn at Shrewsbury, the latter suddenly making a surprise comeback and they were all decent stamp fish, no one knows what happened there. I certainly don't take for granted having access to a few rivers where big roach and barbel are thriving together that's for sure

 

[tigger]

Yeah could also be different in each river, I know roach though have a habit of disappearing in a flash though. Prime examples are the Teme at Ludlow and the Town stretch of the Severn at Shrewsbury, the latter suddenly making a surprise comeback and they were all decent stamp fish, no one knows what happened there. I certainly don't take for granted having access to a few rivers where big roach and barbel are thriving together that's for sure

I agree roach do seem to have more of a noticeable cycle than most other species, although I have noticed a similar thing with grayling.
Apparently graying are short lived and fast growing so maybe that would account for their ups and downs which must co inside with successfull spawning years.
I always thought roach where more long lived creatures though and would have imagined you would have larger fish still hanging aabout as the later batch of up and coming fish where coming on. I don't know, we can only come up with theories and as you pointed out it may well vary from river to river depending on the substrate, flow rates etc etc.
Maybe there is no answer and it's all just hit and miss lol.

 

[theartist]

Maybe there is no answer and it's all just hit and miss lol.

And therein lies the answer to the original post all nine pages back, the temperamental nature of our rivers is for the hardcore enthusiasts and it's much easier to sit on a stocked up stillwater especially if you are young, new or want instant success.

Why didn't you say so on page one instead of faffing on about aggressive baby barbel lol

 

[sam vimes]

Even without a significant and obvious event, pollution, huge flood, unduly hot summer, introduction of a new fish species, significant increase in predation etc, rivers are invariably cyclical. Stocks and sizes of specific species will wax and wane over time. Over the past thirty years or so, I've seen significant changes to the stocks and sizes of fish on practically every river that I'm remotely familiar with.

The Trent may have seen a little more human intervention than most rivers, but it's quite different to the river I remember in the eighties and early nineties. My local seems to change with alarming regularity, as is the nature of spate rivers, but there do seem to be general tends with minor anomalies along the way. Dace and chublets wax and wane, just when you think that the river is devoid of them they have a resurgence. Just when you think there's a chance of them being as prolific as ever, they vanish. I've seen perch and gudgeon appear for single seasons then vanish without trace. However, the general trend on the higher reaches of my local is that chub numbers seem to be dwindling, barbel have all but vanished and grayling are not as numerous or sizeable as they have been in the past. I actually feel that the various zones (trout zone, grayling zone, barbel zone, bream zone) are altering over time. My suspicion for my local river is that this is largely down to abstraction. Even excluding the current extreme summer, the river simply isn't as deep or pacey as it once was.

 

[silvers]

Yeah could also be different in each river, I know roach though have a habit of disappearing in a flash though. Prime examples are the Teme at Ludlow and the Town stretch of the Severn at Shrewsbury, the latter suddenly making a surprise comeback and they were all decent stamp fish, no one knows what happened there. I certainly don't take for granted having access to a few rivers where big roach and barbel are thriving together that's for sure

Roach are far more migratory than I used to think ... I'm pretty sure that Shrewsbury was a case of the migration not happening (for some reason) for a couple of years - perhaps they were mild autumns?
Dace and Roach on the town stretch of the Wye at Hereford are another example of migration for the winter months, and the Old Nene at March as well.

Roach can also be ten times harder to catch in clear conditions. How often does a river have a "nice tinge" these days ..... 25 years ago the Nene held colour throughout the summer - now it's gin clear.

 

[silvers]

Even without a significant and obvious event, pollution, huge flood, unduly hot summer, introduction of a new fish species, significant increase in predation etc, rivers are invariably cyclical. Stocks and sizes of specific species will wax and wane over time. Over the past thirty years or so, I've seen significant changes to the stocks and sizes of fish on practically every river that I'm remotely familiar with.

this in spades.
I've fished the Gt Ouse for 40 years and Trent, Thames, Severn, Warks Avon and Nene for 30 and the Wye for 15.
Sam's statement is true for all of them. The only one that I don't bother with now is the Nene as there are very few matches and it's a long travel for little reward.

 

[theartist]

Roach are far more migratory than I used to think ... I'm pretty sure that Shrewsbury was a case of the migration not happening (for some reason) for a couple of years - perhaps they were mild autumns?
Dace and Roach on the town stretch of the Wye at Hereford are another example of migration for the winter months, and the Old Nene at March as well.

Also on the flip side it could have been an enforced migration, a lot of Teme anglers still mention the floods and the Severn at Shrewsbury would be affected likewise ive never fished there but it struck me as being a bit 'channelled' through the town when I walked it. They could have been pushed downstream to areas of cover in high rainfall(whatever that is lol). This would also explain how some rivers go from being mixed coarse and game to just game rivers as grayling and trout can tolerate much more flow over prolonged periods than species like roach

 

[tigger]

Why didn't you say so on page one instead of faffing on about aggressive baby barbel lol

The reason I posted....maybe there is no answer and it's all hit and miss.....is because I can't prove my thoughts. I still think the introduction of barbel to rivers that didn't previously hold them (the rivers local to me that is) has made a huge impact on the resident species of fish once that the barbel become established and rose in numbers. No matter which way you look at it a water can only support a limited biomass of fish and because barbel grow so large and reproduce so prolifically (if the conditions suit them) they must be eating the food the other fish would have had available to them before the barbel showed up. Imo it's quite obvious the barbel will out compete and out eat the majority of other fish in a river and so will thrive at their expence

 

[theartist]

The reason I posted....maybe there is no answer and it's all hit and miss.....is because I can't prove my thoughts. I still think the introduction of barbel to rivers that didn't previously hold them (the rivers local to me that is) has made a huge impact on the resident species of fish once that the barbel become established and rose in numbers. No matter which way you look at it a water can only support a limited biomass of fish and because barbel grow so large and reproduce so prolifically (if the conditions suit them) they must be eating the food the other fish would have had available to them before the barbel showed up. Imo it's quite obvious the barbel will out compete and out eat the majority of other fish in a river and so will thrive at their expence

It stands to reason the introduction of any fish or indeed mammal will have an effect on the other species. By the same token you get anglers saying they've had always had Otters and not understanding the sudden impact they have when introduced to areas haven't had them in years. Some introductions have a major effect some minimal, I would be confident barbel fall in to the latter and any problems the other species have are more far reaching

The rivers I've used as an example have had both roach and barbel for decades, and the roach compete with barbel and more than hold their own, perhaps nature will take a while to level things out in some rivers, or it might never. All the rivers are so diverse in what species they hold and sometimes you just can't work out why a river has one species and the one down the road has others. Sadly the rivers that are diverse and full of fish are few and far between

 

[Philip]

I posted this a few times but in terms of abstraction I used to fish a little chalk stream down in the SE when I was a kid and it was a lovely little place only inches deeps for the most part with the odd pool down to about 2 or 3 feet. Clear water, full of Gudgeon, Dace, even wild Brown tout. Then it got hit by abstraction and was just decimated. Awful..stagnant green algae, mud, some place dry altogether. Totally destoyed. A few year back I went for a wander down there as I heard they had done some restoration work and it was just fantastic back to as I remembered it and if anything even better. It started to throw up some good fish too.

It gave me some faith that things dont ALWAYS spiral downwards forever.

 

[philc]

Not knowing if fishing a particular river stretch or who to contact to fish puts me off a lot of the time. how do you know if a stretch of river is club controlled or whether a land owner is happy for anglers to be on their land.

 

[O.C.F.Disorder]

turn up with a tenner in your pocket and hope for the best!

 

[nottskev]

Not knowing if fishing a particular river stretch or who to contact to fish puts me off a lot of the time. how do you know if a stretch of river is club controlled or whether a land owner is happy for anglers to be on their land.

I'm not trying to be sarky, but the answer is fairly obvious:

Ask in a local tackle shop
Visit the stretch and check the signage at the access/parking points
Ask around amongst your fishing friends
Check the websites of local clubs and see if it's one of their waters
Etc

I always thought a drive out to prospect for new stretches was a pleasure rather than a chore, and I've yet to find the place that I couldn't find out about, although it's not unknown to find places you can't fish or wouldn't want to pay the subs involved in joining the controlling club.

If you said which area you're in, people on here would probably steer you towards some accessible fishing.