QM1 hooks

[tigger]

You do realize you can tie a eyed hook with a spade end knot dont you Ian...



I'll practice some more Ian.

In the meantime a tip to help you reduce those bulky eyed hook knots you get ...dont finish with the triple granny knot at the end mate

Yeah Pilip, I realise you can tie a eyed hook via a spade end knot . As Sam pointed out you still have a large unsightly eye on top of the hook, plus there's every chance the line will cut off on the gap where the eye comes round to the shank, especially when playing something that pulls back hard.
An eyed hook even when tied via a spade end knot still doesn't hang as well as a spade anyhow. A spade has the spade made on such an angle so as to lean back away from the line when the knot is tied correctly with the line leaving the knot on the inside of the shank. Why on earth would you use a eyed hook and tie it via a spade end knot when it's designed to be tied via it's eye? Philip, are you just teckin't p!ss or what .

 

[Philip]

Yeah Pilip, I realise you can tie a eyed hook via a spade end knot . As Sam pointed out you still have a large unsightly eye on top of the hook, plus there's every chance the line will cut off on the gap where the eye comes round to the shank, especially when playing something that pulls back hard.
An eyed hook even when tied via a spade end knot still doesn't hang as well as a spade anyhow. A spade has the spade made on such an angle so as to lean back away from the line when the knot is tied correctly with the line leaving the knot on the inside of the shank. Why on earth would you use a eyed hook and tie it via a spade end knot when it's designed to be tied via it's eye? Philip, are you just teckin't p!ss or what .

No Ian I am offering some alternative viewpoints to what appears to be blind acceptance of certain principles about spade end hooks.

Point in case...so your worried about line cutting on the eye closure but your never worried about it cutting off on a SPADE END which is basically a bit of flattened metal with a thin edge ?

Fact is either badly made could cut your line.

In fact i would argue there is MORE chance of getting cut off on a naff spade as your pulling tight to two sides of it while with the hook closure there is only 1 and its more tucked under as well.

Ian your not reading the posts.

I have covered these points already…for example why it makes naff all difference for a maggot to hang on a hook thats perfectly straight to the line. Do maggots fall through the water perfectly straight ?

Not any I have seen.

 

[tigger]

No Ian I am offering some alternative viewpoints to what appears to be blind acceptance of certain principles about spade end hooks.

Point in case...so your worried about line cutting on the eye closure but your never worried about it cutting off on a SPADE END which is basically a bit of flattened metal with a thin edge ?

Fact is either badly made could cut your line.

In fact i would argue there is MORE chance of getting cut off on a naff spade as your pulling tight to two sides of it while with the hook closure there is only 1 and its more tucked under as well.

Ian your not reading the posts.

I have covered these points already…for example why it makes naff all difference for a maggot to hang on a hook thats perfectly straight to the line. Do maggots fall through the water perfectly straight ?

Not any I have seen.

Tie on a spade hook properly and check it with a magnifiying glass and the line doesn't come into contact with a sharp edge.
The line is being pulled up against the gap on an eyed hook, it hasn't been designed to be attatched by a spade end knot.
The spade end hook without doubt hangs better than an eyed hook. Out of experience I have had far better results using a spade end hook over an eyed hook when float fishing. I prefer to use a spade end for legering also if fishing lighter.

Can you tie on a spade end hook?

 

[Philip]

Tie on a spade hook properly and check it with a magnifiying glass and the line doesn't come into contact with a sharp edge.
The line is being pulled up against the gap on an eyed hook, it hasn't been designed to be attatched by a spade end knot.
The spade end hook without doubt hangs better than an eyed hook.

The line MUST come into contact with the edge of the spade at some point else it would slip off the shank. That’s why they put a spade end on it.

You can avoid contact with the hook eye closure by starting any whipping from the opposite side as with the knotless knot
….although this is an example of you not reading the posts. I only suggested a spade end knot for a eyed hook for anyone complaining about eyed hook knots being too bulky or leaving the hook at an angle…I personally would just use a Palomar.

Hangs better HOW Ian ? If you mean it sits straighter then I already answered that 3 times…maggots don’t fall in the water straight so how would a fish even notice ?

 

[tigger]

The line MUST come into contact with the edge of the spade at some point else it would slip off the shank. That’s why the put a spade end on it.

You can avoid contact with the hook eye closure by starting any whipping from the opposite side as with the knotless knot
….although this is an example of you not reading the posts. I only suggested a spade end knot for a eyed hook for anyone complaining about eyed hook knots being too bulky…I personally would just use a Palomar.

Hangs better HOW Ian ? If you mean it sits straighter then I already answered that 3 times…maggots don’t fall in the water straight so how would a fish even notice ?

It doesn't come into contact with any sharp edges.....and you cannot tie on a eyed hook via a spade end knot without the line being pulled up against the split in the eye, unless the eyed hook is a seemless eyed hook mg:.

Philip, can you tie on a spade end hook...be honest now?

 

[Philip]

It doesn't come into contact with any sharp edges.....and you cannot tie on a eyed hook via a spade end knot without the line being pulled up against the split in the eye, unless the eyed hook is a seemless eyed hook mg:.

Philip, can you tie on a spade end hook...be honest now?

Does it come into contact with the spade Ian ...yes or no ?

How many Knotless knots have you had cut off on the eye closure ?

Yep, first spade end knot I can recall tying as a kid was the Domhoff and I hated it

PS I see you "forgot" to anwser the bit about HOW it hangs better....and if your anwser is that it sits straighter then my anwser is Maggots dont sink in a straight line ..as I have said 4 times now...

 

[tigger]

Does it come into contact with the spade Ian ...yes or no ?

How many Knotless knots have you had cut off on the eye closure ?

Yep, first spade end knot I can recall tying as a kid was the Domhoff and I hated it

PS I see you "forgot" to anwser the bit about HOW it hangs better....and if your anwser is that it sits straighter then my anwser is Maggots dont sink in a straight line ..as I have said 4 times now...

It doesn't come into contact with the higher up/over the shoulder of the spade.

I rested the spade end knot on eyed hooks in the garden and they did snapp my line under pressure, although different hooks may not cause the problem quite as much, and that could vary from every other hook.
If you tie an eyed hook on via a spade end knot the hook kicks out at an angle....shitty presentation!

Imo Philip, if you could tie on a spade end hook you would know why they give a better presentation and you would be using them....jmo.

Yes the line hangs straighter and doesn't resemble a snarled up tangle of line as it passes downstream. Because of this you get/most people get better results.

By the way, what was the nasty digg I made, seriously I have no idea what it was?

 

[Philip]

It doesn't come into contact with the higher up/over the shoulder of the spade.

I rested the spade end knot on eyed hooks in the garden and they did snapp my line under pressure, although different hooks may not cause the problem quite as much, and that could vary from every other hook.
If you tie an eyed hook on via a spade end knot the hook kicks out at an angle....shitty presentation!

Imo Philip, if you could tie on a spade end hook you would know why they give a better presentation and you would be using them....jmo.

Yes the line hangs straighter and doesn't resemble a snarled up tangle of line as it passes downstream. Because of this you get/most people get better results.

By the way, what was the nasty digg I made, seriously I have no idea what it was?

So it does come into contact with the Spade. That was painful but we got there !

The point being your obsessing about something that does not happen. Be honest …how many knotless knots or any knots have you had cut off on an eye closure …would zero be a good guess ?

Start any whipping from the opposite side and stop highlighting it as an issue. Plus as I already said I only suggested a spade end knot for a eyed hook for anyone complaining about eyed hook knots being too bulky or leaving the hook at an angle…I personally would just use a Palomar.

Btw as an aside a certain Terry Hearn was using Snell knot on eyed hooks right back to his Yately days so you can have an argument with him about it if you like.

Presentation –
Maggots don’t fall through the water straight so the fact the hook may not be sitting 100% perfectly straight makes naff all difference to presentation…how does the fish know ?

Finally if you really believe when you tie a knot to an eye the line resembles a snarled up tangle & if spade ends are so far superior why don’t you use them for all your fishing ? Come on ..your exaggerating Ian.

On reflection I decided there was no dig. That’s why I took it out.

 

[tigger]

So it does come into contact with the Spade. That was painful but we got there !

The point being your obsessing about something that does not happen. Be honest …how many knotless knots or any knots have you had cut off on an eye closure …would zero be a good guess ?

Start any whipping from the opposite side and stop highlighting it as an issue. Plus as I already said I only suggested a spade end knot for a eyed hook for anyone complaining about eyed hook knots being too bulky or leaving the hook at an angle…I personally would just use a Palomar.

Btw as an aside a certain Terry Hearn was using Snell knot on eyed hooks right back to his Yately days so you can have an argument with him about it if you like.

Presentation –
Maggots don’t fall through the water straight so the fact the hook may not be sitting 100% perfectly straight makes naff all difference to presentation…how does the fish know ?

Finally if you really believe when you tie a knot to an eye the line resembles a snarled up tangle & if spade ends are so far superior why don’t you use them for all your fishing ? Come on ..your exaggerating Ian.

On reflection I decided there was no dig. That’s why I took it out.

Obviously the spade end is there to stop the line sliding off the end, but the line doesn't come into contact with any part of the spade thats likely to cut it.

Just told you i've experimented in the garden and they did cut my line on the eye.

Doesn't matter which side you whip on the knot it will still pull up against the eye.

Not interested in Terry Hearn.

You really can't tie on a spade end hook can you?.....can you answer that.

The way the hook hangs on the line makes a huge difference to my catch results, and if you target roach etc it makes even more of a difference.

I'd very much like to see some of your catch results in the HDYGO thread.

 

[Philip]

I'd very much like to see some of your catch results in the HDYGO thread.

I don’t actually fish that much at the moment, catch very little & rarely report things anyway, but if you bother to look you will find a few catch reports by me on HDYGO. I only tend to post when there is something slightly different or mildly unusual about the capture.

In fact if you bothered to look you would also find that my catch reports on that thread are possibly amongst the most varied on there and include fish caught in Fresh and salt water, from lakes, rivers and from the bank and from boats, on bait and on lures and I suspect my handful of posts already covers more species (with photos) than all yours put together.

And as that was most certainly a dig by you I won’t be responding to you on this thread anymore.

 

[108831]

I must say that nobody has ever said maggots sink in a straight line(there is normally some rotation),but the hook being straight from shank to line makes a lot of difference to presentation,nobody in their right mind would intentionally the a hook at right angles to the line,but with eyed hooks there are times when a hook needs pulling straight in relation to the eye,it wouldn't if tied with a spade end knot so much,but then as has been said,why use an eyed when you can use a spade,obviously Philip doesn't have full confidence with spades,that's fine,for me it's horses for courses...

 

[markcw]

I use spade end hooks for 99.5% of my fishing, the only time I would consider an eyed hook would be if I was fishing a margin swim that was full of rushes/snags, I believe if you get taken into the rushes there is a chance the spade end could catch on them and,line gets snapped, I am talking size 12 and 10 hooks when I say eyed hooks for margin.and it would only be a consideration, Apart from that its spade end all the time, I did think of trying the "dink dink" set up, ( hook in a loop) near to the margins but never got round to it, As for hooking maggots, I have the hook point facing upwards and put the "tit" on the blunt end of the maggot on the hook,If you look at a way the maggot crawls the "tit" is always on the bottom, its no use putting it on the hook with the hook point facing down, There is a slight chance the hook can snag, I have hooked maggots through the middle when fishing on the drop as I throw a few in, I have caught , but not as well as if fishing maggots the normal way, ie lengthways, As far as I am aware when tying spade end hook, the line should come off the hook on the inside of the shank, not the outside, because on the outside that is when the spade can cut into the line.

 

[Philip]

As far as I am aware when tying spade end hook, the line should come off the hook on the inside of the shank, not the outside, because on the outside that is when the spade can cut into the line.

I think another reason to make sure it comes off the front of the spade is to avoid hookpulls Mark. I would be more worried about that with the line coming off the back.

obviously Philip doesn't have full confidence with spades,that's fine,for me it's horses for courses...

Its not to do with not having confidence in Spades Alan. Its simply to challenge some of the often quoted rules we hear about them & spark a bit of (hopefully) good natured discussion.

 

[tigger]

I don’t actually fish that much at the moment, catch very little & rarely report things anyway, but if you bother to look you will find a few catch reports by me on HDYGO. I only tend to post when there is something slightly different or mildly unusual about the capture.

In fact if you bothered to look you would also find that my catch reports on that thread are possibly amongst the most varied on there and include fish caught in Fresh and salt water, from lakes, rivers and from the bank and from boats, on bait and on lures and I suspect my handful of posts already covers more species (with photos) than all yours put together.

And as that was most certainly a dig by you I won’t be responding to you on this thread anymore.

How on earth is it a dig, it isn't ?

Anyhow, can you tie a spade end hook?....for some reason or other you completely ignore the question?

 

[tigger]

obviously Philip doesn't have full confidence with spades,that's fine,for me it's horses for courses...

If he likes or prefers eyed hooks that's fair enough.
Why spout a load of nonsense about spade end hooks then?
There's no escaping from the fact that when fishing wiith spade end hooks you get a better presentation and the lighter the set up you use the more obvious it becomes.
If Philip can't tie a spade end hook then he should learn, get someone to tie him some made up rigs or just buy a few ready tied rigs. That would be more sensible than to make up nonsense about the spade end hook cutting your line etc etc. If that where true why can I hit and hold quite decent sized barbel with spade hooks which are usualy size 14's, so not big hooks?
I'd be curious to hear what match anglers prefer to use and their reasons for doing so.

 

[108831]

Not rules Philip,more opinions /beliefs,shared by many,I'm slightly different to Ian,I would use eyed hooks for certain baits,or methods on the float,qm1's I would use down to an 18,but that is a lead only hook for me,but I use the Drennan carp match down to 18's too,for pellet on the band,as I say for maggot/caster fishing on the float(and many feeder situations)I consider spade ends superior,that said I also carry 4/5 patterns of spade end hook to cover different species and fishing situations.

 

[seth49]

View attachment 5862

I’ve been using these Guru Pellet Waggler hooks a lot lately, with there upturned eye and tied to the hook length with a knotless knot, they lie nice and straight, with a bait band on a short hair, there good for banded pellets,corn or meat,a very strong hook as well, had carp and barbel as well as silvers on them

 

[Mark Wintle]

I use spade-ends for 95% of my fishing but as an aside how many have ever used the 'hook in a loop' method? I tried it as part of my research for my pole fishing book and lacked confidence in it but lost very few fish and it worked surprisingly well. From memory, developed by Giles Cochran.

The hook, straight-eyed, runs free on a 2" loop, usually used on the pole so striking is directly upwards, typical hook size 18 or 16.

 

[markcw]

When its hard going , you can bury a spade end hook in a caster better than trying to use an eyed hook,
@tigger its not nonsense about the spade end cutting into the line, If the line comes off the back of the shank, when tied the top of the spade end can dig in to the line. That is why it is better to come from the iside of the shank, when tied the line comes over the top of the spade end without it catching on the edge, If you have any ready made ones check and see which way the line comes off the hook. If people cant tie a spade end and catch on eyed hooks I cant see a problem with that, Each type of hook has its own uses, also there are plenty of type of ready made hooklengths out there to suit everyone,

 

[markcw]

I use spade-ends for 95% of my fishing but as an aside how many have ever used the 'hook in a loop' method? I tried it as part of my research for my pole fishing book and lacked confidence in it but lost very few fish and it worked surprisingly well. From memory, developed by Giles Cochran.

The hook, straight-eyed, runs free on a 2" loop, usually used on the pole so striking is directly upwards, typical hook size 18 or 16.

I have read articles where Giles has advocated this method, I have never used it, I know a few who have and done well on it. Like you say Mark I would put it down to confidence, mainly because it looks a crude method, What I have tried a couple of times when using the loop to loop method of joining hooklength to mainline is using large loops, this seems to give a better fall when fishing on the drop.