Bream shoal size

[davebhoy]

I had a strange day fishing for bream yesterday - no hint of a bite except for an eel until everything switched on for an hour and I had four fish over 10lb to 13lb and then nothing after. I had two in the net at the same time at one point

I was fishing two rods, one about 25 yards out and another at over 50, probably 40 yards apart but two fish came on each rod.

It made me wonder about the size of bream shoals. Its a 25 acre reservoir, would it likely be two shoals or one big one?

 

[sam vimes]

A lot depends on the water and stocking density, but I've found that the bigger bream get, the more chance there is of them mooching about in low numbers. They often don't shoal at all, mooching about in twos and threes or even joining similarly small groups of carp or tench.

Maybe your water has such a huge head of big bream that they will shoal up in numbers. However, until you start to batter them out in numbers, it's likely to be nigh on impossible to tell without resorting to a boat, drone, hydroscope or fish finder.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I don't think there is a hard or fast rule for the size of bream shoals as it is very dependent on venue size, available natural food as well as natural breeding cycles etc. . . . .

On a strecth of the Avon I know quite well there are a couple of shoals of large bream (8lbs to 11lbs) but they only number in the low teens.

Alternatively, when we used to fish those large matches in Denmark some of those shoals were absolutely huge and would stretch over several pegs at the same time, and where 15 kilos of groundbait had to be topped up in the match . . . .

 

[davebhoy]

A lot depends on the water and stocking density, but I've found that the bigger a bream gets, the more chance there is of them mooching about in low numbers. They often don't shoal at all, mooching about in twos and threes or even joining simarly small groups of carp or tench.

Maybe your water has such a huge head of big bream that they will shoal up in numbers. However, until you start to batter them out in numbers, it's likely to be nigh on impossible to tell without resorting to a boat, drone, hydroscope or fish finder.

Yesterday I broke my duck after 5 blanks and I’m not a good enough angler to ever bang them out in numbers, but I have heard of someone who has.

 

[sam vimes]

Yesterday I broke my duck after 5 blanks and I’m not a good enough angler to ever bang them out in numbers, but I have heard of someone who has.

To be fair, four double figure fish is pretty good going (in a day session) from the vast majority of UK waters.

 

[Philip]

I think as a general rule the bigger they get the less in a shoal there is likely to be.

How big a shoal can be is a bit like asking how many birds in a flock...it can vary depending on lots of factors.

I wouldn't give too much away about your waters location.

 

[mikench]

Skip will be all ears.

 

[flightliner]

Skip will be all ears.

As Will many others Mike !

 

[The bad one]

A bream puts on about ½ lb a year in a good water, so the fish you were catching are around 20 years old. Bream tend to live between 20 -30 years, the fish you were catching are toward the older end of the age spectrum. Natural mortality rates of fish that age could be around 25% per year.

I’d say at this time of year the fish after the Easter hot weather were gathering in groups in the gathering areas, pre-spawning on the spawning grounds they use in the reservoir. One water I fish you can at this time of year have 30 fish around 10 lbs and upwards in 2-4 ft of water, as it’s where they gather pre-spawning. All the bream in this water are gathered in and around this area and no one catches any bream from elsewhere on it. Post spawning and until the same time next year you won’t catch a bream in this area at all. It’s been like that for 50 years that I know of. It was great fun when we had a close season on stills to take one of the club punts out and drift around the area bream spotting.

In my view you’ve been fishing in a gathering area/spawning area and the fish you caught were from possibly several shoals that spawn close by in about a month’s time.
You can’t use this time of year as a mark of the population or shoal size as it artificially inflated by the pre-spawning gathering.

What I will say is fill your boots whilst they are there in those numbers, because as sure as eggs are eggs, they’ll be gone and broke up into the natural shoal sizes come the end of June for sure. And those shoals, at those sizes of fish, are more than likely to be between 3 – 8 fish.

 

[no-one in particular]

Just a theory, but do shoals of fish stay together from birth and just whittle down in size year by year until there's just one or two very large fish left. And do these shoals never mix, which is what I think Badone said, they will gather for spawing but separate after into thier separate original shoals. So does each year produce one shoal of fish from all the shoals spawning together. Is this true of all fish, big roach end up being one or two fish or solitary fish. I dont think I have heard of big shoals of "big" fish in any species, carp, roach, chub ect I once watched fish in a tank, a shoal happy to swim around together and introduced a fish of the same species but the shoal rejected it; just wouldn't swim with it despite its attempt to join the shoal.

I once caught 20 barble from one swim/weed bed, all the same size roughly, about 7lb and its often the same with bream. I caught 9 tench once from a river, very rare but they were all the same size near enough. And a winter chub haunt by a bridge I can catch 8 ish chub all the same size roughly. Theres a pattern and its the same with sea fish, mackeral for example, the shoal will all be a simalar size.

 

[Philip]

Just a theory, but do shoals of fish stay together from birth and just whittle down in size year by year until there's just one or two very large fish left. And do these shoals never mix, which is what I think Badone said, they will gather for spawing but separate after into thier separate original shoals. So does each year produce one shoal of fish from all the shoals spawning together. Is this true of all fish, big roach end up being one or two fish or solitary fish. I dont think I have heard of big shoals of "big" fish in any species, carp, roach, chub ect I once watched fish in a tank, a shoal happy to swim around together and introduced a fish of the same species but the shoal rejected it; just wouldn't swim with it despite its attempt to join the shoal.

I think its a very complex subject Mark with allot of factors that influence it at work. I would also be interested to hear others views on this.

I don’t think there will be hard fast rules but I do think fish will tend to group with others around the same year class maybe for the security …you dont want to stand out like a sore thumb. In addition I also believe they have the capability to recognize so they may shoal with fish they already know..brothers and sisters they where spawned with for example.

If your a very small fish you also probably dont want to mix with much bigger fish even of the same species in case they eat you.

On the other hand I guess we have also all seen many examples of fish of different sizes mixing as well, one or two big ones amongst smaller ones. In addition some fish are just more inclined to shoal than others. Bream being a classic shoaler.

The number of permutations at work is huge and we will probably never know all of them for certain.

 

[davebhoy]

A bream puts on about ½ lb a year in a good water, so the fish you were catching are around 20 years old. Bream tend to live between 20 -30 years, the fish you were catching are toward the older end of the age spectrum. Natural mortality rates of fish that age could be around 25% per year.

I’d say at this time of year the fish after the Easter hot weather were gathering in groups in the gathering areas, pre-spawning on the spawning grounds they use in the reservoir. One water I fish you can at this time of year have 30 fish around 10 lbs and upwards in 2-4 ft of water, as it’s where they gather pre-spawning. All the bream in this water are gathered in and around this area and no one catches any bream from elsewhere on it. Post spawning and until the same time next year you won’t catch a bream in this area at all. It’s been like that for 50 years that I know of. It was great fun when we had a close season on stills to take one of the club punts out and drift around the area bream spotting.

In my view you’ve been fishing in a gathering area/spawning area and the fish you caught were from possibly several shoals that spawn close by in about a month’s time.
You can’t use this time of year as a mark of the population or shoal size as it artificially inflated by the pre-spawning gathering.

What I will say is fill your boots whilst they are there in those numbers, because as sure as eggs are eggs, they’ll be gone and broke up into the natural shoal sizes come the end of June for sure. And those shoals, at those sizes of fish, are more than likely to be between 3 – 8 fish.

Thanks, very interesting.

That certainly makes sense on another gravel pit I fish. At 2 acres it's much smaller so its known that there are two shoals in there, one with younger smaller fish and another with larger fish to around ten pounds. The two shoals tend to stay put in their own separate locations for most of the warmer months but in the lead up to spawning they mix in and area very close to the spawning grounds. I had a couple of really productive weeks there last year catching from both shoals and then watched them spawning very near to where I had caught not long after

It'll be interesting trying to catch them in less favourable conditions than Friday - it was like as soon as it became more overcast and the wind changed to a south westerly they switched on, when it changed back again, the cloud broke up a bit and it got a bit chillier everything went dead. It was only for an hour or so. Maybe they had had all the bait by then and as it was at the end of the session I didn't put anymore in, but I have noticed there that success does seem to be very much dependent on the conditions. I'll be giving it a go this week again when I can which will probably mean fishing with a less favourable wind and cloud cover.

 

[steve2]

I don’t know about size of shoals but they can be sometimes be too easy to catch. I remember fishing a water where when bream fishing we each caught 4 or 5 fish in the 6lb+ region then the shoal would move on. You could then put your rods to one side for a few of hours and wait for them to do a circuit of the lake before catching again. We got to know this shoal so well it became too easy and we stopped fishing for them.

 

[flightliner]

I tend to hold the view that in the main Bream will be found swimming side by side with others of a similar size .
There are tho times when they will mix if a massive food source becomes available that can sustain them all until it's time to move on.
I've had times when the bigger fish are absent, only smaller ones showing interest, then on other occasions it's the bigger fish that dominate the catch but numbers tend to be fewer when the big fish show as obviously there are more smaller ones than large.
Then, when they all merge for a feast o n a large food source that's become available it's a mix of each .
At this time the shoal can stay in the area for several weeks until it's no longer a viable option and the fish will go back to swimming with their peer group.

 

[Weirdoh]

Just a theory, but do shoals of fish stay together from birth and just whittle down in size year by year until there's just one or two very large fish left. And do these shoals never mix, which is what I think Badone said, they will gather for spawing but separate after into thier separate original shoals. So does each year produce one shoal of fish from all the shoals spawning together. Is this true of all fish, big roach end up being one or two fish or solitary fish. I dont think I have heard of big shoals of "big" fish in any species, carp, roach, chub ect I once watched fish in a tank, a shoal happy to swim around together and introduced a fish of the same species but the shoal rejected it; just wouldn't swim with it despite its attempt to join the shoal.

I once caught 20 barble from one swim/weed bed, all the same size roughly, about 7lb and its often the same with bream. I caught 9 tench once from a river, very rare but they were all the same size near enough. And a winter chub haunt by a bridge I can catch 8 ish chub all the same size roughly. Theres a pattern and its the same with sea fish, mackeral for example, the shoal will all be a simalar size.

I see this every year for Minnows who were in 500 strong shoals in the low water margins on a river I film annually. I was told Bream are "hatch loyal" like you explained and this is why you often see them at similar sizes, I believe its true to a certain extent with most fish species (sea and course) Barbel become solitary and nomadic because they cover large territories at certain sizes with safety in numbers for young upto middle weight.
Hammerhead sharks meet up in certain spots every year as documented by wildlife experts and I would assume alot of species would be doing this based upon spawning, migration to warmer areas where natural food sources would suppliment successful spawnings etc.
On the Manchester Ship Canal (much like on the Trent from my experience) the Bream frequent certain middle areas of a moving water close to their natural food source both an expression of need after the exhausting spawning time comes to a close and as recovery would dictate from neccessity or be desired for the growing progeny/hatched eggs/very young fish, there are huge areas of swan muscle once located and revisited have proven to hold alot of the carp that live in there.
So I would guess you are right for reasons nature has shown prove beneficial to do so during certain times.