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  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2017
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    Luton Bedfordshire.
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    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    But Mark,the issues of our waterways is that nobody maintains free water and freeloading thieves who want something for nothing are taking advantage of a club's efforts,however this links to the shooting ban thread inasmuch as if no clubs owned our rural waters in particular,who the hell would bailiff/police riverbanks to stop angling taking place,certainly not police officers,not farm workers as in the main it's only the farm owner themselves that can be bothered...

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Cheshire North
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    190

    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by The bad one View Post
    No Angling clubs have started to protect their members rights who can pay not insignificant amounts of money to fish said piece of river. And stop freeloaders "thieving," and it theft their fishing rights.

    I'd like to thank personally Mr Miles Gibson for establish without a shadow of a doubt that fishing someone's piece of water with permission is Theft of Fishing Rights under the Theft Act. Cheers For that Miles!
    Strangely this was the reason I left one of the 3 clubs I was a member of.
    The club was powerless to stop teenagers catching the fish in their ponds because both the Police and the local authority once involved gave the these teenagers enough encouragement to know nothing would be done if they were caught again. The club couldnt raise its boundary fences with brand new galvanized palacade due to legal issues that considered the would be " theives" who might injure themselves during their next "heist".
    Some areas seem to do better than others with the relationships they (the club set ups) have with local authorities and have a good solid knowledge of the legal realm of fishing/water/riparian/civil/roman/legal/societal laws (or rules).
    The Theft Act is by the consent of the governed (fact), if your a member of that society you can lobby for black to be changed into white, not saying I agree or disagree but Acts of parliament are not fixed, but can be changed, ammended, repealed by any of the next passing offices and 99% dictated by exchanges in voting trends and financial directives lobbied by business interests, so while I agree legally someone can make a rule in his or her society that states "permission is theft" due to its existence, common law however, would indicate "false witness" to using such grammatical sophistry to make something agreed by the witness testimony of two or more into a crime. That is why people lose cases in courts with strong well reasoned out testimony....because it doesnt matter to the statute book.You could push the boat out further and claim ownership is theft ..but that would upset all licensees (marriage/car/retail..) who swap rights and material assets as men and women for priviledges and permits in exchange and lose both time and effort to overspend on what was already theirs to begin with.
    The free stretches where I live are respected, maintained as best can be by the efforts of the few committed peoples free unpaid time and work, to not advertise the fishing, continue working with environmentalists by reporting foul play. This will change only once the eyes of envy begin to show or the club signs appear in their place, taking the value of the sport off of the "freeloaders" who always had permission and within common law agreement.
    I cannot raise a glass to that kind of performance but I respect you and the places you like to fish by leaving them well alone for the free stretches.
    Next time I try a pair of shoes on in the owners shop with his/her permission would I be deemed a theif at the moment my hands hold one of the shoes? Only asking?
    Last edited by Weirdoh; 01-05-2019 at 08:40.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Woodhouse View Post

    As well as the river bed, the owner of that also owns the space above the bed including that which the water occupies. So anyone wishing to paddle through with a canoe must, unless it is defined as a navigable river, gain agreement with the owner to paddle through. He also owns the ground beneath the bed, barring mineral rights etc., to the Earth's core. (This came from a barrister we had one here.)
    For all the poetry lovers on FM, I've attached a link to William Empson's 1928 "Legal Fiction". He's no E J Thribb, but his cryptic, elliptical treatment of the topic is typically ingenious. It seems to be read by a robot, but it's the only trace of it I could find online.


  4. #24

    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdoh View Post
    Next time I try a pair of shoes on in the owners shop with his/her permission would I be deemed a theif at the moment my hands hold one of the shoes? Only asking?
    If you broke it to the shop, then you would be guilty of theft by touching them and trying them on.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Luton Bedfordshire.
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    3,820
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    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Weirdoh,you seem to want something for nothing,something that someone else has paid for,just because it's there and you can gain access,a bit like a squatter,just an observation you understand....
    Last edited by whitty; 01-05-2019 at 10:39.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    In God's County: Wiltshire
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    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    As has already been noted there is free fishing available all over the country, granted sometimes it takes some work to find it.

    However, as an example, I have a fortnighly rod on the Itchen and that costs just under £1500 per annum for trout fishing every other weekend . . . . . now, at the end of the lower trout beat there is a long stretch of free fishing available to all.

    On the same stretch there are coarse tickets available for £27.50 per day from November to March 14th. . . . (but not on the trout beats), but again the free stretch downstream is available to all and sundry.

    Further afield there are huge stretches of free fishing on the Thames . . . . . .

    Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers.

    Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary. ~

    Patrick F. McManus






  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Manchester
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    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikench View Post
    That was before the 1968 Theft Act Phil. Under the Larceny act 1916 there had to be an asportation ie an act of picking up and taking away! Now the definition is to appropriate property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it ! It could be argued that catch and release does not do that!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Indeed it was Mike and as you know the greater parts of the LA Act was subsumed into the Theft Act in 1968. In the Hardy V Wells case that point (asportation) was argued by the defendant i.e. he was going to put them back at the end of the day. Justice Parker clearly saw it differently though. To the best of my knowledge it's never been tested since 1964 through the courts. Case law perhaps?

    Carty & Payne both Solicitors in angling matters felt it important and relevant enough to cite in their 1998 book "Angling and the Law.
    Last edited by The bad one; 01-05-2019 at 11:02.

  8. #28
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    Mar 2008
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    Manchester
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    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdoh View Post
    Strangely this was the reason I left one of the 3 clubs I was a member of...……………………………………… ...
    Good luck with arguing much of what you think and have wrote in a court of law in the real world.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    leafy cheshire
    Posts
    12,106

    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by spenbeck View Post
    If you broke it to the shop, then you would be guilty of theft by touching them and trying them on.
    Arguably you would be charged with burglary with theft as a secondary charge! I wouldn't fancy your chances of pleading
    I was only trying them on your honour , honest!

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Cheshire North
    Posts
    190

    Default Re: Who owns a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by spenbeck View Post
    If you broke it to the shop, then you would be guilty of theft by touching them and trying them on.
    Who said anything about breaking into the shoeshop?
    People putting words in my mouth, even my analogy has been changed to breaking into a shop. Do you buy shoes blind without trying them for size first? Really?

    I will try one last time:

    Does the security guard in say...Asda, collar the theif in or outside of the premises?
    If your answer is outside then I would ask you why?
    Last edited by Weirdoh; 01-05-2019 at 15:23.

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