Carp Pollution

[nottskev]

We've been over this ground before, I know, but it's not surprising it comes back as the topic is the character of mass/popular fishing culture, and the model of fishing available to most.

I'm not arguing with Sam Vimes' description of the situation where he lives, but just adding an example that shows things can move in a positive direction as demand changes in response to developments.

One of my local clubs had stocked its chain of smallish ponds with the inevitable - but certain other inevitabilities followed. The carp grew, disrupting fishing for the other species and proving impossible to get out of the weed, lillies and snags with anything bar tackle absurdly unsuited to the other species. Members got fed up, the committee underwent upheaval, the match scene fell apart, the wisdom of stocking carp was re-assessed, and eventually precious funds were allocated to having the ponds electro-fished and most of the carp removed, with crucians tench and bream replacing them. By popular assent the ponds are better without the dominant carp, peace reigns amongst members and committee, and the ponds are producing better all-round sport more consistently and decent mixed match weights of say 10lb-25lb. Of course, this is no more than the recent fortunes of one small club, but it shows that the decisions that give us widespread uniformity and dysfunctional waters can be reversed when they don't work out.

 

[sam vimes]

We've been over this ground before, I know, but it's not surprising it comes back as the topic is the character of mass/popular fishing culture, and the model of fishing available to most.

I'm not arguing with Sam Vimes' description of the situation where he lives, but just adding an example that shows things can move in a positive direction as demand changes in response to developments.

One of my local clubs had stocked its chain of smallish ponds with the inevitable - but certain other inevitabilities followed. The carp grew, disrupting fishing for the other species and proving impossible to get out of the weed, lillies and snags with anything bar tackle absurdly unsuited to the other species. Members got fed up, the committee underwent upheaval, the match scene fell apart, the wisdom of stocking carp was re-assessed, and eventually precious funds were allocated to having the ponds electro-fished and most of the carp removed, with crucians tench and bream replacing them. By popular assent the ponds are better without the dominant carp, peace reigns amongst members and committee, and the ponds are producing better all-round sport more consistently and decent mixed match weights of say 10lb-25lb. Of course, this is no more than the recent fortunes of one small club, but it shows that the decisions that give us widespread uniformity and dysfunctional waters can be reversed when they don't work out.

Nice to hear it. I dearly wish some of the local clubs could afford to do that and survive. Sadly, that much expense would break many of my local clubs. They maybe ok in the shorter term. Unless the fix was very quick, I doubt they'd survive in the longer term. Sadly, an awful lot of members abandon a club if the fishing isn't up to scratch in the present. What might be in five or ten years is of no interest to them.

We see similar on the syndicate. To all intents and purposes, that started out as virgin water. We had our share of "has it done a thirty" type enquiries, which went nowhere when the response was negative. Plenty say they'll be back once the fish are big enough. Sadly, very few ask any questions about the size of the tench or bream. No one down south would get too excited about a 7.5lb tench or 14.5lb bream, but they are pretty damned good for up here.

Tench and crucian waters have always been thin on the ground up here. The very best I recall, probably with a large helping of rose tinted glasses, was all but destroyed by a combination of factors beyond the control of the controlling club. It had nothing to do with carp though. One prolific tench water was sold and can no longer be legitimately fished. One still exists, and is largely as it ever was, including it being a rather difficult proposition outside of a 2-3 week period every year. In its heyday, Castle Howard Great Lake was probably the best tench and bream venue I knew of north of the Humber. Though it ended up a pale shadow before, it's now lost as an open access venue.

With a fair bit of patience, on the right water, I may better the biggest tench in your prolific tench water. I'm almost certain I couldn't find anywhere as prolific nearer though. There's good reason why I'd like to fish it. I had a total of thirty two tench from the syndicate last May. I was rather pleased with myself for that return. Judging by your photos, you'll be around that total in an average session.

 

[nottskev]

Nice to hear it. I dearly wish some of the local clubs could afford to do that and survive. Sadly, that much expense would break many of my local clubs. They maybe ok in the shorter term. Unless the fix was very quick, I doubt they'd survive in the longer term. Sadly, an awful lot of members abandon a club if the fishing isn't up to scratch in the present. What might be in five or ten years is of no interest to them.

I can imagine. There were some factors in this club's favour - a core of anglers with a long-term connection,luck in finding buyers for the carp removed and sellers of some unwanted decent size bream - from a carp water! And so on. I'd say it has taken 2 years to pick things up after a near melt-down.

 

[Philip]

As a an all round angler the introduction of Carp can also be a positive thing.

Apart from the fact I like them I know it will mean the Carpers will bait up and feed all the other fish. It also means a number of general anglers will probably up sticks and leave.

So less pressure and more food…no prizes for guessing what happens to the silver fish stocks and best of all I'll probably be one of the few left fishing for them.

 

[sam vimes]

I can imagine. There were some factors in this club's favour - a core of anglers with a long-term connection,luck in finding buyers for the carp removed and sellers of some unwanted decent size bream - from a carp water! And so on. I'd say it has taken 2 years to pick things up after a near melt-down.

That's the way my syndicate has got its tench, bream and roach. Always a worry that they'll go backwards in a new water though. Fortunately, the tench appear to be creeping up in weight, but they are notoriously slow growers. The bream have been a revelation, though the number of them are very low. If there are more than thirty in 28 acres, we'll be lucky. They were a decent size when introduced, but they've almost doubled in size in the five or six years since. There are a few more tench than bream, perhaps 120 or so and whatever may be left of the few hundred we stocked as fingerlings nine or ten years ago (that no one even saw, let alone caught). Small fish tend to vanish. I know they are in there somewhere, but the pike and cormorants tend to keep them limited and on the move. Anyone got skipfuls of roach, rudd and gudgeon they need a home for?

 

[rayner]

Carp are everywhere the two venues I fish, I favoured fishing for silver fish but I've bit the bullet and decided to catch carp. I don't give myself many more years to fish so catching all I can is my mission.
I've changed all my elastics in my top kits. I'm geared up to catch carp, baring in mind the carp I am catching are smaller, no big brutes.

 

[108831]

As a an all round angler the introduction of Carp can also be a positive thing.

Apart from the fact I like them I know it will mean the Carpers will bait up and feed all the other fish. It also means a number of general anglers will probably up sticks and leave.

So less pressure and more food…no prizes for guessing what happens to the silver fish stocks and best of all I'll probably be one of the few left fishing for them.

Are you really an all round angler Philip,imo if you were you would realise that some species suffer from the carps presence,crucians and tench are two,also some anglers do not want waters with limited numbers of large fish,because we are fishermen,not campers,20/25years ago there were lots of waters with good populations of middling sized tench,you know,2-4lb fish,now they are scarce,yes there are tench there,but you have a pretty good chance of failing because low numbers mean less hungry fish,I've had this debate with you before,but I can honestly think of no benefits carp give a non carp angler,only problems,with how the fish itself is and the way modern carp fishing is done,the world of the modern day carp angler written out for him in the Danny Fairbrass videos and only a small proportion don't follow a similar approach.

 

[103841]

I use to think that I was remembering my fishing as a youth some fifty years ago through rose tinted glasses, but it was a time that the lakes and ponds I fished were a proper mix of species, rarely ever went with anything heavier than 3 to 4lb line and to get broken up by a carp was a very rare event.

 

[bennygesserit]

I appreciated exactly what you were talking about. I was giving examples of why, despite being one of them, I don't believe that there really are enough people that want to catch good stillwater fish that aren't carp. When I start seeing non-carp (or non-river) syndicates and non-carp commies proliferating, or clubs with such waters not needing to think about stocking waters with carp just to boost incomes, I might start believing it's true. If I'd ever heard of hoards of mixed fishery stillwater syndicates it would be a start. The day I hear of a plethora of tench syndicates, I'll be sold on it. I am one of those anglers that are interested in good stillwater fish other than carp, but I've had to put my money where my mouth is to satisfy that need.

What really needs to happen is for someone to trust their views and run a tench, bream etc water, or even just a carp free mixed fishery, as a club or syndicate, and see if they can even manage to cover the rent at prices people are prepared to pay. Do a deal with a struggling club for their existing carp free water (before they fill it with the things), or simply start from scratch on a virgin water. I would hope to be wrong, but I doubt either would get enough interest to survive for long.

Unfortunately, this forum is not remotely representative of the average angler. For a start, the average age is relatively high. There are some very regular anglers that fish at least once a week, some three or four times a week. There are many regular posters that won't go near a commie, many that do little but fish rivers, and many that are, at best, indifferent to carp. None of this is anywhere near average angler territory.

Thats a really good point , I would be interested to see the demographic of the average angler.
The difference between the conversations I have had with other anglers I have met on the canal or at commercials compared to here - is like chalk and cheese.
"you should try so and so commie its easy - the fish are massive too" is the "average" comment I used to get.

But we shouldn't forget that for the average angler catching 20 * 10 LB carp on a day ticket water ( which I have managed to master a couple of times ) is deffo exciting - rod bends round , sound of the line being taken , good fun.

However , even for a happy splodger like me there is a lot of fun to be had not carp fishing , there is a prolific roach water ( public ) by me that I have had fantastic days fishing for roach on a whip and most of the memorable fish I have caught are not carp - 2 massive tench from the canal , a pike from the canal , a very large perch from the canal , a day absolutely catching roach after roach at a public pool.

But also the mentality is , for some anglers is to judge the day on how many carp you have caught , I once caught about 10 carp in 90 minutes on a swim feeder dropped just of the ( artificial island ) , "got my moneys worth there" , for a lot of casual anglers going fishing and not catching a carp is like going out and not pulling - "all the carp were lesbians"

If you join a forum to talk about fishing , as Sam says you are probably not the average angler.

 

[Philip]

Are you really an all round angler Philip,imo if you were you would realise that some species suffer from the carps presence,crucians and tench are two,also some anglers do not want waters with limited numbers of large fish,because we are fishermen,not campers,20/25years ago there were lots of waters with good populations of middling sized tench,you know,2-4lb fish,now they are scarce,yes there are tench there,but you have a pretty good chance of failing because low numbers mean less hungry fish,I've had this debate with you before,but I can honestly think of no benefits carp give a non carp angler,only problems,with how the fish itself is and the way modern carp fishing is done,the world of the modern day carp angler written out for him in the Danny Fairbrass videos and only a small proportion don't follow a similar approach.

Have you considered taking up sea fishing Alan ?

 

[108831]

I've done a lot of sea fishing and fly fishing for trout,but maybe you should try sea fishing,crikey the tackle you use for carp is heavier than a lot of beach gear...

Not only that it carp weren't such an invasive species I wouldn't have to,do carp have to be everywhere,honestly,of course they dont...

 

[Philip]

I did once catch Carp right in the mouth of the Murrey river in Australia were it meets the Indian Ocean literally with waves crashing in the background so no your probably not safe in saltwater either.

Hmm. Have you thought about golf ?

 

[108831]

I like golf,if I didn't go fishing,that would be my pastime of choice,why would I need to change my hobby,I enjoy my fishing,a lot,but more to the point why has angling been allowed to change our fish stocks ,both species and biomass of said species?

 

[stillwater blue]

I enjoy my fishing,a lot,but more to the point why has angling been allowed to change our fish stocks ,both species and biomass of said species?

Because it what most anglers want most of the time so it's the most successful business model. It's really as simple as that.

 

[Philip]

Because it what most anglers want most of the time so it's the most successful business model. It's really as simple as that.

Shame I cant "like" that post 1000 times. Its indeed that simple but some people appear to have a major problem understanding it.

 

[108831]

But I'm not talking about commercials,I'm talking about natural waters,club fisheries,I'm not talking about reasonable sized lakes,say one acre or bigger,I'm on about ponds that are never going to produce big carp,Christ that isn't big business,it's the survival of an indigenous species,crucians,selfish attitudes like that are what make humans such a sh1t species,I'm out....

 

[Philip]

Your problem is with Capitalism not Carp. Regardless of the label you want to stick on a bit of land with water on it ..be that "commercial", "natural", "wild" or whatever, it still needs paying for.

 

[108831]

Your problem is you love mud pigs,carp are not the jesus of angling,far from it,fishing would survive without carp being in every puddle and your naive if you think otherwise,if half of the waters in the country had they're carp removed there would still be enough waters around to fish for them,without overcrowding,you have no care for the environmental damage that carp have achieved for indigenous species,not least by the sheer amount of bait slung in by anglers,I'm coming close to ceasing this conversation,because it's emotive,I don't want the eradication of carp,so why are you intent on destroying crucian carp and tench fisheries,what actual gain is there in your world? Not all lakes need paying for,they exist whether paid for or not,or whether anglers are on them or not,greed by some landowners who have jumped on the band wagon has created syndicates charging the earth,like the Ouse barbel syndicate at Adams Mill,the farmer got greedy and got the club to run the syndicate,then it all fell through and he had to reduce rents to what they were before syndication...

 

[rayner]

I must admit that this season I've geared myself to fish for commercial carp.
I'm taking what I believe to be the easy way to catching fish. Reason my fishing days are numbered. The only reason I fish is the self gratification of catching, sitting there watching a stationary float or tip is not my bag. I need bites, not too fussed about wildlife whilst fishing. There's plenty of time for that away from the bank.
In an ideal world I would always go with whitty, indigenous species, they're after all how I was brought up on rivers and reservoirs.
To enable me to fish now I'm stuck on commercials. Limited walking, comfortable pegs, hard/gravel paths, toilet, and tackle shop if I need it all make fishing for me easy. Is it how I prefer to fish, no it far from it. It's the only way I can the way I'm fixed now. I'd sell my soul to fish the Trent or river Idle with a stick again.
I used to catch silvers from the fishery I fish now but fresh stocking of F1s on top of small carp and they get right in the way. Of course I can catch Ide, for gods sake they catch themselves. A constant trickle of feed and up they come like moths to a flame.
I get the odd roach or bream but carp trash my tackle. Now I've decided to increase my terminal tackle a notch to accommodate the s0ds.

 

[108831]

Rayner mate,there is nothing wrong with carp and I will probably end up like yourself on a commercial somewhere,the only issue I have is that every lake has to have them,even a half acre,eighteen inch deep puddle,I would probably fish for skimmers and roach on commercial,plenty of those in an usually...

Just to add,the water I'm fishing at the moment has flat swims,a nice hard path all the way round it,lock up car parking(hard standing)with five swims adjacent to said car park,so it's good for an oldun,or unfitun too....