Global warming? Oh no not again!!!

[Peter Jacobs]

There is a huge difference between the anti-smoking campaigns and the measures that will be necessary to combat Climate Change will be so far reaching as to alter the way most people live their lives today.

Everything from what you drive, how you heat your home, commute to and from work and even what you eat (and where it comes from) will need to alter, and in some cases drastically so.

In order to have any real (and lasting) effect those changes will have to be more or less world wide, and to be totally candid I fail to see how that will ever come to pass.

How countires like China, Brazil, India and the Indonesian terrirotries can be made to take some measures that will be deeply injurious to their economies and cultres is a complete mystery to conventional thinking.

Then add in that in America you have a regime that is completley anti Clmate Change to the point where all references to it have been excluded from all future trade agreements with the USA.

In the meantime we can struggle-on using our bags for life and segregating our garbage I suppose.

PS: As for oil "running out" Iran have just published details of their latest discovery of approx., 55bl barrels. and that equates to 55bl times 79 US gallons per barrel, times 14% more when cracked at the refinery . . . .

PPS: I am very sceptical when it comes to electric car mileage claims as it seems that the claimed figures are only from a straight run . . . . no stopping and starting, no long hill climbs or excessive loads in the car (2 or more people) and no traffic jams . . . .

 

[steve2]

PPS: I am very sceptical when it comes to electric car mileage claims as it seems that the claimed figures are only from a straight run . . . . no stopping and starting, no long hill climbs or excessive loads in the car (2 or more people) and no traffic jams . . . .

Tests carried out under normal driving conditions found that stated mileage like normal cars was not possible. So until I can get a car that carries 5 people plus luggage for upto 500 miles and can be recharged in 5 minutes I will stick to my diesel.

 

[nottskev]

There is a huge difference between the anti-smoking campaigns and the measures that will be necessary to combat Climate Change will be so far reaching as to alter the way most people live their lives today.

Everything from what you drive, how you heat your home, commute to and from work and even what you eat (and where it comes from) will need to alter, and in some cases drastically so.

In order to have any real (and lasting) effect those changes will have to be more or less world wide, and to be totally candid I fail to see how that will ever come to pass.

How countires like China, Brazil, India and the Indonesian terrirotries can be made to take some measures that will be deeply injurious to their economies and cultres is a complete mystery to conventional thinking.

Then add in that in America you have a regime that is completley anti Clmate Change to the point where all references to it have been excluded from all future trade agreements with the USA.

In the meantime we can struggle-on using our bags for life and segregating our garbage I suppose.

PS: As for oil "running out" Iran have just published details of their latest discovery of approx., 55bl barrels. and that equates to 55bl times 79 US gallons per barrel, times 14% more when cracked at the refinery . . . .

PPS: I am very sceptical when it comes to electric car mileage claims as it seems that the claimed figures are only from a straight run . . . . no stopping and starting, no long hill climbs or excessive loads in the car (2 or more people) and no traffic jams . . . .

I honestly can't tell from this post whether you a) think there is no problem b) think there is such an insuperable problem that it is futile to even think it can be addressed.

But I like your American "regime". Thankfully, they still favour regime change (in their own country) every few years

 

[Peter Jacobs]

To be perfectly open, of course I believe that there is a problem, and a rather large one.

My intention in the earlier post was to try to open a window on the enormity of the real problem and the nature, and impact, of the changes that will be required to combat it; as well as to highlight the fact that the solution will have to be world wide . . . . .

I know there are those who would criticise me for having spent my entire career in the oil and gas industry, for which I will make no apology whatosever, unless those criticising also apologise for every time they have heated their house, cooked a meal or filled their car . . . .

I am truly not very confident that a world wide solution can, or will be found, as I said on a different thread earlier today . . . we live in an era of Smart 'phones and Stupid people . . . . where sound bites rule over substance . . . .

 

[lambert1]

Yes Peter there is a world of difference between smoking and climate change and the work to be done there. It is a good example (depressingly so) of how little was done against mounting evidence though and that was what Kev was getting at. We are singing from the same hymn sheet, albeit a rather gloomy one.

 

[nottskev]

To be perfectly open, of course I believe that there is a problem, and a rather large one.

My intention in the earlier post was to try to open a window on the enormity of the real problem and the nature, and impact, of the changes that will be required to combat it; as well as to highlight the fact that the solution will have to be world wide . . . . .

I know there are those who would criticise me for having spent my entire career in the oil and gas industry, for which I will make no apology whatosever, unless those criticising also apologise for every time they have heated their house, cooked a meal or filled their car . . . .

I am truly not very confident that a world wide solution can, or will be found, as I said on a different thread earlier today . . . we live in an era of Smart 'phones and Stupid people . . . . where sound bites rule over substance . . . .

Fair answer. Part of the enormity of the problem is that we are all embedded in a society that has been built around our use of energy, food production, transport etc etc, and can't just jump out of it. We are all involved in the problem, and everything we might do individually seems insignificant and recognising that makes us feel powerless and helpless.

I take your point about responsibility being shared between say producers and users. But I'd add that, for me, it's not always equally shared. For instance, it's very hard to avoid filling a wheelie bin with discarded excessive packaging these days. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, but it becomes my responsibility to look after it, sort it and pay again to have it taken away, sorted, disposed of or recycled. The little efforts an individual can make on their own look puny. We have to hope that public opinion and effective campaigns can lead to something that impacts on those who, politically and industrially, make the weather.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I try to cut down on unnecessary packaging by shopping for veggies and fruit at the Charter Market in Salisbury. The traders there sell package-free and all it needs is a good old fashiond shopping bag and hey presto, little or no waste packaging.

Growing up in the 50's my grandmother never went out without her string bag for her shopping . . . . and most items in the grocery shops were sold wrapped in paper, but of course that was labour intensive in the shops and before supermarkets.

I spent decades working for American oil companies and experienced first hand how they operate . . . . . and how they indoctrinate their staff; at one company you got a memo telling you how to vote in forthcoming elections and which candidates are consdered best for the business.

For a long time my bosses boss was **** Cheyney (B&R) and I've seen Rex Tilotson (CEO E-M) in full swing in meetings . . . . both would leave you under no misunderstanding of exactly what they wanted . . . and got.

On the t'other side I've seen first hand the vast amounts of money and resources spent in R & D for new and non-fossl fuel alternatives.

 

[no-one in particular]

I have not known peace and quiet or clean air for most of my life. I grew up right next to what was the main drag to Heathrow airport. I now live alongside a rat run. If electric cars are quiet and emission free then personally I welcome them.

 

[steve2]

I have not known peace and quiet or clean air for most of my life. I grew up right next to what was the main drag to Heathrow airport. I now live alongside a rat run. If electric cars are quiet and emission free then personally I welcome them.

There are nearly 40 million cars and vans and lorries on UK roads and flights in and out of airports every few minutes how do we convince people to change to cleaner ways.
I grew up with cleaner air but I am now surrounded by some of the UK worst roads pumping out pollution, planes overhead every few minutes but I can't be convinced to change.

 

[laguna]

That is really interesting Chris as I had read somewhere that the only reason hydrogen cars are not being produced is because of the explosive nature of the gas and the problems that this would cause in collisions. If I am reading what you said correctly, that is baloney and we are being treated like mushrooms.

The risk of explosion from carrying around cylinders of compressed hydrogen is one of the reasons, but there are other factors at play, some not too obvious to the casual observer. From a purely technical standpoint, the methods by which hydrogen has been produced in the past has been extremely cost prohibitive. Cold fusion is a prime example of pathological science in which it could never be reliably replicated in the lab - those two guys who claimed to have invented it got away with a fortune in research grants and through private investments.
Most methods of producing our energy requires an enormous amount of input energy, usually in the form of electrical energy (derived from carbon fuels) offsetting any real cost benefit of clean energy - energy in>same energy out. Albeit sometimes in a different form.

#Transportation of hydrogen is futile and risky.
#Compressing hydrogen for easier transportation and storage is energy intensive and wasteful.
#Hydrogen being the lightest of gasses can pass right through it's own container - up into the atmosphere and into space.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, it can be burned in the presence of oxygen or converted easily into other useful forms of energy such as electricity.

A lower cost, hand held, high efficiency heat source (a now largely forgotten technology) capable of reaching temperatures over 6,000 °C (10,800 °F), has been around for about 100 years.... is capable of splitting water H2O>H1+H1+O (water splitting has a heat requirement of 3,000°C). The energy derived is realised via an electric arc when the two split hydrogen atoms violently recombine again to produce enough excess heat capable of melting tungsten 3,422 °C. Oxygen being a useful bi-product. This can be cooled to more manageable levels for domestic use if desired by varying the arc or with the addition of alcohol and water in small scale reactors.

Overall I think the key to the success of an hydrogen economy (cheap/free energy) lies in our ability to produce it in situ - right at the point of use. I'm sure this is the future!

Whoops, but all those heat emissions....??? mg:

Laguna, your last post was very interesting. I seem to recall that there was a report about a hydrogen powered high altitude aircraft being invented? This would have been about 30 years ago? Conspiracy sceptics thought that the invention was bought by the oil companies?

I remember hearing something about a new aircraft jet utilising atmospheric oxygen Peter. A quick search throws up this... It seems we're not too far away after all... The Synergistic Air-Breathing Rocket Engine (SABRE), which is being developed by the U.K. company Reaction Engines, can switch between two modes. In aircraft-engine mode, it uses oxygen from the atmosphere, and in rocket-engine mode, it burns an oxidizer carried onboard together with the fuel liquid hydrogen.

 

[no-one in particular]

There are nearly 40 million cars and vans and lorries on UK roads and flights in and out of airports every few minutes how do we convince people to change to cleaner ways.
I grew up with cleaner air but I am now surrounded by some of the UK worst roads pumping out pollution, planes overhead every few minutes but I can't be convinced to change.

I couldn’t convince you or anyone, it’s not my aim and I don’t know enough about motoring or electric cars to put the argument forward anyway. I drove for 35 years and loved it but enough is enough, time for quiet emission free cars and I think that will become the norm one day. The 150-250 range wouldn’t bother me, fishing/shopping trips, and a few trips to London a year. But for 500 mile trips obviously not viable however, maybe some sort of relay service for long trips will be available one day when this takes hold.
I would just have loved to have known what it was like to live in a world with all electric cars. I can imagine the quiet and not breathing in traffic fumes all day only in my mind. But I hope that’s a reality for future generations.

 

[steve2]

I would just have loved to have known what it was like to live in a world with all electric cars. I can imagine the quiet and not breathing in traffic fumes all day only in my mind. But I hope that’s a reality for future generations.

Any body living in this country 70 years ago had a more or less car free life. We made use of cycles and public transport and didn't travel far.

 

[no-one in particular]

Any body living in this country 70 years ago had a more or less car free life. We made use of cycles and public transport and didn't travel far.

Would have been a lot nicer I think, Just before my time. There was a lot less traffic in my youth but not where I grew up, 5 miles from Heathrow on the A4 and planes skimming the rooftops as well. And that traffic was 24 hours a day to Heathrow, my bedroom was right out side the road, I must be a miracle of human survival given the amount of **** in me.
But that's the point, some don't survive and people have had enough and I don't blame them.

I do acknowledge Peter's point, we have all benefited from petroleum but I still think enough is enough and the time has come to change.

 

[John Keane]

When someone invents an electric car that can get me from Merseyside to Speyside (370 miles) on one charge, and costs as much as my Golf diesel, I’ll buy one. Until then I’ll carry on being a polluter and do my ‘environmental bit’ in other spheres.

 

[mikench]

Forgetting the emissions advantage I explained to my wife that changing her car to an electric vehicle would definitely save several hundred pounds a year in car tax and petrolbut it would take a lifetime to get your money back from swapping vehicles. She runs out of petrol on a regular basis so an electric vehicle is a no no. I reckon electric vehicles will be charged the same ,if not more, than petrol/diesel cars within 5 years. I say more because the billions lost in petrol tax will have to be found somewhere. I reckon fast charging 10kwh charging points will also be heavily taxed as will the cost of the electricity to run them.

I remain unconvinced by the long term future of electric cars.

 

[no-one in particular]

When someone invents an electric car that can get me from Merseyside to Speyside (370 miles) on one charge, and costs as much as my Golf diesel, I’ll buy one. Until then I’ll carry on being a polluter and do my ‘environmental bit’ in other spheres.

I think they may get round this problem one day where you have a relay service for long journeys as long as they are there and back, you pull in and swap your car for a fully charged one, you swap as many times as you need to. I don't know really, I am just guessing but they will find a way round it one day, we are clever and inventive to get round problems as well as cause them.

 

[no-one in particular]

Not forgetting the emission advantage because that’s the main thing that electric cars are all about. This is it really, are people prepared to accept a different type of motoring with some disadvantages to some for the sake of a cleaner and quieter environment; everyone will want that in the future, not the noisy polluted one I grew up in. Maybe not this generation because they do not want any change but future ones probably will. I am not trying to preach to anyone but a lot of car manufacturers have invested a lot of money in electric, they were going to have to do this anyway one day, the environment issue has just spurred them on and they are aware of what Governments and environmental generations will do to them one day, look at congestion charges and car free zones, that’s just the beginning so, these companies are not going to give up, now,.
And is that the cost of the whole car or the difference between in cost the petrol one and the electric one Mike. Because that’s more realistic in what people face if it is in recovering any cost..
You may be right it will become more expensive to what it is now for electric but it has not stopped people buying petrol cars and I am sure it will not stop them buying electric one day. It’s going to be slow, it’s too big a change to happen overnight but it will happen progressively and it will get better in technical ways and convenience, these things normally do, look at petrol cars to what they were once .

 

[mikench]

I agree Mark that the motor car as we know it and use it will change. We need more and reliable train services/ tramways here in the NW with an equivalent of the Oyster card giving a seamless and cheaper way to travel by bus and train. A car in London( I have 2 daughters who have lived there through university and after) is useless and public transport far better despite cost and overcrowding. I personally will not give up my cars( I have got rid of 2) as I need them for fishing and other tasks. I might pollute but I pay all my taxes and try in other ways to save the planet( recycling, walking whenever possible. I drive much less than I did( 15,000 miles a year less) and will do more.

I'm certain there will be breakthroughs ahead with CO2 or Hydrogen powered cars, planes and trains. I doubt I will see them though in my lifetime.

 

[steve2]

Most of us need a car to go fishing, when I pack up driving I will pack up fishing. I can't remember the last time I saw anyone on public transport with fishing gear.

 

[laguna]

I remember we went everywhere on the bus with all our gear as a kid, big box, rod holdall and bags full to the brim with home-made bait and whatnot. And camping too with all the extras, necessities and the obligatory unnecessary's.... just in case it was ever needed.
Or even our bikes - as long as it was within a 2 hour ride laden with tents and fishing gear. 'The days'!

Roy my mate, god rest his soul, once got a rear puncture on the way home from a weeks camping/shooting/fishing trip. He was well ****ed off! But no problem, I simply removed his back wheel and joined my front forks turning two bikes into a tandem. Obviously we couldn't ride the damn thing such as the amount of gear we had between us, but at least we got home safely in time for a jolly good *******ing off our parents.
Strange init? No matter where we went or for how long we disappeared, beit a day, two days or a week at a time, we always 'copped it' as soon as we walked through the door?

These electric cars? Great idea nice and clean and all that, and cheap(ish) starting at £15k a pop, but many buyers fail to realise the electricity used to charge the batteries (which themselves are made using petrochemical products) is often still generated by burning fossil fuels - with the associated huge efficiency losses through conversion and distribution.
As I mentioned earlier, I think generating clean energy and using it at source is where we should be heading - with hydrogen being the cleanest and greenest option of them all. But alas the dirty big conglomerates have little incentive to rush, preferring instead to push the gullible consumer into paying carbon taxes - for the sole benefit of themselves and those they lobby.

Funny how tomorrows technology is always just within reach isn't it? We just need a bit more research money off the tax payer first, grant money to advance what we already know, just a bit more dosh from early adopters before they realise they've been sold a pup... the just-around-the-corner stepping stone towards clean energy etc.

The Big Green Carrot phenomena.