W
Wag
Guest
don't anybody ever say the Wallis cast is difficult again.
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E
ED (The ORIGINAL and REAL one)
Guest
knit one purl one
I
Ian Whittaker
Guest
Looks safe as houses -not!!
B
Budgie Burgess
Guest
Ian.it is perfectly safe and is no where near as complicated as the diagrams lead you to think.Watch a competent caster and the one impression you get is that it looks so effortless.Timing and style are the important factors to both gaining distance and being safe.It is people doing it incorrectly or using incorrect equipment that is the danger.Still dont think it has any great relevance in freshwater though.
J
jason fisher
Guest
budgei
it was a how to question for a sea angler that i wanted to answer.
I just put a second question in the carp section because i thought it might get answered more quickly.
it did no one has replied to the same question in the sea thread.
just a note on safety, this should not be attempted without a minimum shock leader strength of 10lb per ounce of lead being cast.
it was a how to question for a sea angler that i wanted to answer.
I just put a second question in the carp section because i thought it might get answered more quickly.
it did no one has replied to the same question in the sea thread.
just a note on safety, this should not be attempted without a minimum shock leader strength of 10lb per ounce of lead being cast.
D
Dave O'L
Guest
Just to back up Jason's point as 10lb to the oz is considered to be the magic formula.
Get stuck into one of these casts & if it comes off the lead can easily go 400 yds + with the resistance removed. I used to have a practice on some playing fields when I lost one above the leader knot (at that time I didn't realise that a piece of inner tube over the thumb would wear the line out).
Found the lead as it had 25ft of luminous orange leader attatched to it. It went over 1/2 cricket pitch, 2 football pitches (lengths) & about another 100 yds on over a disused railway track. At the time I was only hitting 100yds on a practice cast.
I find what I call a fishing pendulum, a sort of half way house, fine when lots of bait is on. I can't do a full pendulum anyway.
It's a swing out to 11.00 - swing in to the right 5.00 & as it pulls on the rod, turn body into it, transfer body weight (like a golf shot) then bring the arms into it last.
From what I've read over the years the continental fishermen appear to have a good system i.e. a longer softer rod & an off the ground overhead. Probably a lot safer.
Get stuck into one of these casts & if it comes off the lead can easily go 400 yds + with the resistance removed. I used to have a practice on some playing fields when I lost one above the leader knot (at that time I didn't realise that a piece of inner tube over the thumb would wear the line out).
Found the lead as it had 25ft of luminous orange leader attatched to it. It went over 1/2 cricket pitch, 2 football pitches (lengths) & about another 100 yds on over a disused railway track. At the time I was only hitting 100yds on a practice cast.
I find what I call a fishing pendulum, a sort of half way house, fine when lots of bait is on. I can't do a full pendulum anyway.
It's a swing out to 11.00 - swing in to the right 5.00 & as it pulls on the rod, turn body into it, transfer body weight (like a golf shot) then bring the arms into it last.
From what I've read over the years the continental fishermen appear to have a good system i.e. a longer softer rod & an off the ground overhead. Probably a lot safer.
B
Budgie Burgess
Guest
But the continentals use 6lb mainlines!This safety thing (when learning) is very important.Saw one snap off that left the lead burried in a tree some 300m away.Lets remember that any snap off (regardless of style) can be potentially lethal.How many times have you seen people fishing the far margin when others are fishing it from that bank? a large lead breaking off and hitting some one could be lethal no matter what style got it there.With a pendulum cast the chances of a snap of going behind or to the side of the caster are none existant (providing the correct gear is used) losing control of the reel spool is the only way a cast goes behind or side ways.still dangerous though admitedly.Again only a fault of a learner or wrong gear.Most of the people in fact possibley all of the people who dislike the Pendulum are people who cant do it.
D
Dave O'L
Guest
Go with most of what you are saying Budgie. Bit off putting to have a half wit casting a 4oz across a lake to 20 ft away from you. At sea have seen some trying to pendulum on crowded piers?
Thing is doesn't off ground fly on a more vertical plane whilst the pendulum a bit more lateral & more movement to the side?
I agree with you Budgie that in the right hands it's fine. I have a mate who is one of these effortless casters (unlike me). He can hit it for miles. He reckons that he could cast with light lines (he doesn't) cos he's so smooth.
It's not him I worry about but macho man 50yds down the beach on my left giving it some, without a clue where the lead is forgetting to re-engage his rotten bottom.
As far as the continental system goes I don't agree with the 6lb line & I'm not saying it's a system I've used, just wonder as the things I've read in Sea Angler indicated that similar distances could be reached by average fisher.
I was wondering if rods of this type of design could be used for carp fishing if distance is required rather than a big poker of a rod?
Thing is doesn't off ground fly on a more vertical plane whilst the pendulum a bit more lateral & more movement to the side?
I agree with you Budgie that in the right hands it's fine. I have a mate who is one of these effortless casters (unlike me). He can hit it for miles. He reckons that he could cast with light lines (he doesn't) cos he's so smooth.
It's not him I worry about but macho man 50yds down the beach on my left giving it some, without a clue where the lead is forgetting to re-engage his rotten bottom.
As far as the continental system goes I don't agree with the 6lb line & I'm not saying it's a system I've used, just wonder as the things I've read in Sea Angler indicated that similar distances could be reached by average fisher.
I was wondering if rods of this type of design could be used for carp fishing if distance is required rather than a big poker of a rod?
B
Budgie Burgess
Guest
Using a lower diameter line is the easiest way to increase distance.Before the days of ultra powerful fast taper rods Carp anglers often used 6-8lb mono combined with a shock leader for long range casting with their 2 3/4lb rods.When I speak of the European system of sea fishing (long 14'+ soft actioned rods and light 4-6lb reel lines)you will find this throughout the Mediterainean coast lines of France and Spain.The Portuguese also use it for most of their match fishing too.If you doubt me have a look at any coverage you can find of the recent World Championships.
Your comments on people "trying" to pendulum cast are quite correct.As for using it on any crowded pier,breakwater then this shows a definate lack of regard for others safety.I could see the same mentality carper attempting it on his local pond! A lot of rods designed for "South African/Off the Ground" casting are designed a bit softer and longer,this also makes them a lot more forgiving to errors in style and timing.As I have said all a bit academic really as I still feel that it is the range that you can accurately bait up that really limits the maximum distance you can fish whilst casting.
Your comments on people "trying" to pendulum cast are quite correct.As for using it on any crowded pier,breakwater then this shows a definate lack of regard for others safety.I could see the same mentality carper attempting it on his local pond! A lot of rods designed for "South African/Off the Ground" casting are designed a bit softer and longer,this also makes them a lot more forgiving to errors in style and timing.As I have said all a bit academic really as I still feel that it is the range that you can accurately bait up that really limits the maximum distance you can fish whilst casting.
R
Ron Troversial Clay
Guest
That pendulum cast looks rather complicated and is certainly not necessary for the sort of rock, beach and surf casting I used to do years ago.
6lbs line, you must be mad. In the rocks and gullies I used to fish, you wouldn't land anything on less than a 30 lbs line, unless you where fishing around harbour walls and estuaries and then I would use 12 lb line and fixed spool reels. Even the there was the chance of hooking a garrick which would scream off with 200 meters of line if you let it.
For all round beach casting, a 12 foot medium action rod and a 10000C fitted low down on the rod would do all you wanted.
Although not an expert with such tackle I have seen anglers chuck a 5 oz sinker over 200 metres!! No kidding. I could manage about 150 metres with a simple swing, similar to that popularised by Leslie Moncrieff many years ago.
The secret is to use the reel at the bottom of the rod. It doesn't take long to learn to control the spool with your left thumb, even if you are right handed.
Playing big fish is a heck of a lot easier with the reel at the bottom of the rod. You wear a rod button on a belt around your waist, put the butt of the rod in it and heave. A good star drag is important as is the fact that when you fish from the rocks, NEVER turn your back on the sea, especially on an Indian Ocean coast. Some of the waves can be mountainous and you may have to run like hell.
And never fish alone. From high rocks you need a gaff with a long handle.
Don't even think of trying to return fish in these conditions. A 40 lb Steenbras or Queenie is ample reward for a fishing session. Take it home and eat it.
Lovely.
Such lovely memories of sea fishing off the African coast.
6lbs line, you must be mad. In the rocks and gullies I used to fish, you wouldn't land anything on less than a 30 lbs line, unless you where fishing around harbour walls and estuaries and then I would use 12 lb line and fixed spool reels. Even the there was the chance of hooking a garrick which would scream off with 200 meters of line if you let it.
For all round beach casting, a 12 foot medium action rod and a 10000C fitted low down on the rod would do all you wanted.
Although not an expert with such tackle I have seen anglers chuck a 5 oz sinker over 200 metres!! No kidding. I could manage about 150 metres with a simple swing, similar to that popularised by Leslie Moncrieff many years ago.
The secret is to use the reel at the bottom of the rod. It doesn't take long to learn to control the spool with your left thumb, even if you are right handed.
Playing big fish is a heck of a lot easier with the reel at the bottom of the rod. You wear a rod button on a belt around your waist, put the butt of the rod in it and heave. A good star drag is important as is the fact that when you fish from the rocks, NEVER turn your back on the sea, especially on an Indian Ocean coast. Some of the waves can be mountainous and you may have to run like hell.
And never fish alone. From high rocks you need a gaff with a long handle.
Don't even think of trying to return fish in these conditions. A 40 lb Steenbras or Queenie is ample reward for a fishing session. Take it home and eat it.
Lovely.
Such lovely memories of sea fishing off the African coast.
B
Budgie Burgess
Guest
In all fairness to the Continentals they are targetting small fish in very little tide.Their approach works for them.Compettition wise they have regularly hammered our national team untill this year when our squad adopted their tactics!
A lot of people can cast "150" and "200m" very few cast measured 150+s though.
Moncrief most likely forgot more about sea fishing than I will ever know BUT his theories on LDC and rod design were fundementaly flawed!It was amazing that he achieved the distances he did with the "Spring Heel/Butt)rod he designed.Love to see what he could have done with a 13'Hi Carbon butted modern Pendulum rod with the low reel position.
A lot of people can cast "150" and "200m" very few cast measured 150+s though.
Moncrief most likely forgot more about sea fishing than I will ever know BUT his theories on LDC and rod design were fundementaly flawed!It was amazing that he achieved the distances he did with the "Spring Heel/Butt)rod he designed.Love to see what he could have done with a 13'Hi Carbon butted modern Pendulum rod with the low reel position.
R
Ron Troversial Clay
Guest
For several years I used an 11 1/2 foot rod made with a stiff composite carbon butt and a Fenwick glass top section. It had a fairly fast taper but was forgiving enough for a person of my build. I never used a Moncrieff type rod although I could see what he was getting at.
A lot of surf anglers do not possess the physique to cast with some of the "brute sticks" I have seen some South African lock forward types, cast over 200 metres with ease.
In fact I beleive that some years ago it was a South African who held the shore casting record. It was a tremendous distance with normal fishing gear, not shock leaders with 6 lb backing.
I will investigate the matter.
Personally I have had measured, over a rugby field, a cast I made using the gear I have described. It went 152 metres but I was in my late 20s at the time and boy, was I fit.
A lot of surf anglers do not possess the physique to cast with some of the "brute sticks" I have seen some South African lock forward types, cast over 200 metres with ease.
In fact I beleive that some years ago it was a South African who held the shore casting record. It was a tremendous distance with normal fishing gear, not shock leaders with 6 lb backing.
I will investigate the matter.
Personally I have had measured, over a rugby field, a cast I made using the gear I have described. It went 152 metres but I was in my late 20s at the time and boy, was I fit.
J
jason fisher
Guest
once did a 150+ when i was about 20 but i was also playing number 8 at rugby at the time
it went from the try line of one pitch to half way down the next pitch along in the park.
it went from the try line of one pitch to half way down the next pitch along in the park.
R
Ron Troversial Clay
Guest
Jason you must be William Webb Ellis re-incarnated.
C
Colin North, the one and only
Guest
You lot talking about Moncrief reminded me that I have a Moncrief rod by B James in my cupboard and I just measured the distance from the butt to the top end of the reel seat! What do you reckon? 43 inches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe that Les was local(ish)to me, although I never met him. I do know that he was a very large man which suggests that his secret may have had as much to do with his strength as anything else.
I believe that Les was local(ish)to me, although I never met him. I do know that he was a very large man which suggests that his secret may have had as much to do with his strength as anything else.
R
Ron Troversial Clay
Guest
Very true. I met Les Moncrief who at the time was chatting with **** Walker at an angling exhibition at Earls court in the 60s. He was truly a giant among men and even made **** Walker seem small.
I have never been able to handle a beachcaster with the reel up the rod. To cast a good distance you need your right hand, your best hand uncluttered by having to hold the spool or to feather it. This actions are best performed with your left hand.
Having the reel low down on the rod became known as the South African Style (there I go again) When you are prancing around on rocks, the last thing you want is 40 odd inches of butt sticking out behind you!
I have never been able to handle a beachcaster with the reel up the rod. To cast a good distance you need your right hand, your best hand uncluttered by having to hold the spool or to feather it. This actions are best performed with your left hand.
Having the reel low down on the rod became known as the South African Style (there I go again) When you are prancing around on rocks, the last thing you want is 40 odd inches of butt sticking out behind you!
B
Budgie Burgess
Guest
The length of the butt,which stoped the effective use of the "punch and pull"(the final application of power in any efficient style )wasnt the only problem.The reverse taper of the butt just swallowed up any energy put in as opposed to transfering it to the lead via the tip.
Also not so sure that strength/size is all that important.One of the most recent sucsessfull tournement guys is Neil MacKellow yes he is a big guy and does very well with the long rod low reel combination but if you look at his equal less than a decade before,Paul Kerry,he is a dwarf! he used the origonal Pendulum set up of a 11 1/2' rod with the high reel position.Paul is possibly the fastest caster ever.It has been theorised that the faster the casting action the more crucial the timing and style.The longer rod lends itself to a slower action and is a bit more forgiving.The low reel position is as Ron says good with these rods as you can feed more power in with your right hand and leave your left to control the reel.It also balances out the long rod a lot better.The key to sucsees is definately style and timing,the smoother the power flow the better.This is why a good caster makes it look so easy and effort less.
One style that I have noticed larger guys do tend to do better in is one we havnt mentioned yet and that is the "Yarmouth" or "Backcast" Here the 14'+ rod reigns supreme and strangely the fixed spool is prefered by most of its exponents.All though very similar to the Pendulum this is a much more forgiving style due once again to its far slower action.Really excells when you have to chuck a big lead ie 7ozs+ Not been asked to teach this one for years shame very effective.I think it origonally went out of favour as the old 14'+ fibreglass tip and duraliumn butt rods coupled with big fixed spools,that the style called for were no where near as nice to fish with as the 11 1/2' and multiplier combo.Another interesting thing that came with the "South African" style (back in the 70's) was the "Bazooka" rod anyone remember those?
Oh BTW Ron the 6lb mainline line and leader aproach I refered too was/is used by continentals sea anglers and carp anglers.The standard for beach anglers is 15lb or more accurately 0.35mm diameter mainlines.The tournement world,in order to keep it more in touch with fishing, has adopted this along with the 150gm (5 1/4ozs) lead for its main event/record requirement.
Also not so sure that strength/size is all that important.One of the most recent sucsessfull tournement guys is Neil MacKellow yes he is a big guy and does very well with the long rod low reel combination but if you look at his equal less than a decade before,Paul Kerry,he is a dwarf! he used the origonal Pendulum set up of a 11 1/2' rod with the high reel position.Paul is possibly the fastest caster ever.It has been theorised that the faster the casting action the more crucial the timing and style.The longer rod lends itself to a slower action and is a bit more forgiving.The low reel position is as Ron says good with these rods as you can feed more power in with your right hand and leave your left to control the reel.It also balances out the long rod a lot better.The key to sucsees is definately style and timing,the smoother the power flow the better.This is why a good caster makes it look so easy and effort less.
One style that I have noticed larger guys do tend to do better in is one we havnt mentioned yet and that is the "Yarmouth" or "Backcast" Here the 14'+ rod reigns supreme and strangely the fixed spool is prefered by most of its exponents.All though very similar to the Pendulum this is a much more forgiving style due once again to its far slower action.Really excells when you have to chuck a big lead ie 7ozs+ Not been asked to teach this one for years shame very effective.I think it origonally went out of favour as the old 14'+ fibreglass tip and duraliumn butt rods coupled with big fixed spools,that the style called for were no where near as nice to fish with as the 11 1/2' and multiplier combo.Another interesting thing that came with the "South African" style (back in the 70's) was the "Bazooka" rod anyone remember those?
Oh BTW Ron the 6lb mainline line and leader aproach I refered too was/is used by continentals sea anglers and carp anglers.The standard for beach anglers is 15lb or more accurately 0.35mm diameter mainlines.The tournement world,in order to keep it more in touch with fishing, has adopted this along with the 150gm (5 1/4ozs) lead for its main event/record requirement.
J
jason fisher
Guest
it was a cast ron not a kick the bit about playing rugby was i was fitter and stronger than i am now i had the physique to control it. i was practicing on the local rugby pitches who use to allow me to becaues there was no one around to get hurt and i played for the club.
R
Ron Troversial Clay
Guest
If I did any surfcasting again, I would definetly use a fixed spool reel, a big bait-runner set low on the rod with a left hand wind. Fixed spool reels have come a long way since the days of the 70s and make no mistake are capable of handling very big fish.
I fact some of the big Shimanos, in the right hands are capable of chucking well over 100 metres, without the necessity of learning complex casting techniques.
12 feet would be the maximum length I would recommend for any rod. 11 feet being perhaps the optimum length for the average built angler. Too much is made of long distance casting. It's the same in fly fishing. Learn to cast a reasonable distance and learn to do it so that you can fish enjoyably, without stress, for long sessions.
Average casters, I have found, catch more fish. It's a fact that knowing WHERE to cast is far more important.
I fact some of the big Shimanos, in the right hands are capable of chucking well over 100 metres, without the necessity of learning complex casting techniques.
12 feet would be the maximum length I would recommend for any rod. 11 feet being perhaps the optimum length for the average built angler. Too much is made of long distance casting. It's the same in fly fishing. Learn to cast a reasonable distance and learn to do it so that you can fish enjoyably, without stress, for long sessions.
Average casters, I have found, catch more fish. It's a fact that knowing WHERE to cast is far more important.