Matt Hayes & Pike Fly Fishing

[Colin Brett]

Anyone seen some comments made, alledgely, by Matt Hayes, about Fly fishers for Pike being responsible for the decline of Pike in trout waters. I no longer buy any of the angling papers so I haven't seen it myself. Any views on the subject?
Colin

 

[Gary Knowles]

Although I don't want to critisise what other people do. I personally am not a big fan of pike fishing in summer. They really do give their all and being quite a fragile fish take some time to recover.

I think (I've only looked breifly at the article) Matt was talking about fishing for them on quite light gear in summer and hence prolonging the fight.

If this is so then i would tend to agree, but as we all cause some distress to our quarry its only a matter of to what degree, so I wouldn't condem anyone for doing this - I just wouldn't do it myself.

Besides, I'm too busy with bream, tench and barbel in summer !

 

[David Will]

It has been suggested this is why Grafham has been poor.It doesn't help when the likes of Bob Church fishes for Pike with nylon leaders.An unusually clear gravel pit near me has been caned for two seasons summers by lure anglers it has gone from a superb winter Pike venue to a very poor one.

 

[Colin Brett]

Thanks for coming back on this. Gary, what you say is valid, if indeed light tackle is being used. Rods are now built for the job and are pretty powerful, but I suppose some may just use their normal trout gear. David, is this a fact about Bob Church? or was he trout fishing and just happened to hook a pike? When he fished the Pike Fly competition he was certainly using a wire trace, so why wouldn't he use one again, if indeed he was Piking?
Ref. Grafham's poor results, I find it hard to believe that this is all down to Pike Fly fishers! Hardly anyone fishes it for pike with a fly! Perhaps it was the caning it took from a few Fish mongers last year, who not only fished it with fly tackle, but killed all they caught for resale to Hotels and restuarants. At least 1 Thirty and several twenties, plus quite a few Zander disappeared down this route. This has hopefully been stopped by AW bringing in bag and size limits. All of this on top of years of abuse by the netting teams.
Rutland has been fly fished a bit more than Grafham, but the results of my friends who do it are about 1 Pike every 10 hours. Hardly a case of pressuring the Pike population, more likely a case of pressuring the Fly fisher.
I think Matt needs to look elsewhere for his causes, namely the practise of going ashore and subjecting the fish to "just one more from the other side" plus the obvious recaptures. Look at Llandegfedd, what's happened to the catch rate there? I bet no ones fly fishing for them there!
Chew has been Fly fished all this season for Pike, how come there are any left if what Matt says is correct?
Interesting isn't it!
Regards,
Colin

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Arrghhh..Blood boiling now! I have fly fished for Pike for many years now so i think I can speak with some authority on the matter.

To say a fly fisherman is ruining the Pike sport on reservoirs is utter crap! My fly rod is a 10 weight purpose built thing. It will subdue a double quicker than my Amourphous Pike rods!! Unfortuantly, some anglers do fish for Pike using 6 weight trout rods, and I have always been against this practice, but I have seen many, many "Pike" anglers using just as unsuitable "Pike" rods and poor bite indication!

Now, I lure fish, i make my own jerkbaits, I have been Jerkbaiting for at least 4 years now...regularly..and i can tell u for a FACT that it is these methods on the Trout waters that are slowing the sport down.

How? Because Pike wise up to bloody great fluorecent Jerkbaits very quickly. Infact, any large lure. Read any book dedicated to lures and it will state that after a bit of pressure (such as several weeks of intense lure fishing on the reservoir Pike Trials!!) the Pike start to look at smaller, more delicate lures. Its happened on my local water! Over the past 2 seasons the pike have got increasingly finicky and now only hit small plugs, the Jerkbaits being almost useless now.

Look at the methods being used on the reservoirs at the momnet. Large lures, jerkbaits, large rubber grubs etc in outrageous colours. The Pike aint stupid u know!

So...in conclusion, using the correct gear, matched to single, barbless hooks and a wire trace is no different to any other pike methods EXCEPT that there is FAR LESS damaged to the Pike, the hook is almost invariably in the scissors and only requires a quick shake with the pliers to remove it and that i truely belive that large lures with large hooks and intense pressure from large groups of Pikers over a few weeks are to blame for the slowing down of sport. We all know Pike thrive on neglect...increase the pressure and they naturally melt away. They are still there...just not so stupid!


As for Bob Church fishing without a wire trace...I believe it was either Grafham or Rutland had banned wire traces when fly fishing to stop anglers blatently fishing for the Pike (not allowed u see)

 

[Gary Knowles]

Correct Rob.

There is fly gear available that is up to the job of pike fishing. What I was refering to was the guys who still use a weight 6 or 7 reservoir fly rod attach a wire trace and away they go.

Any big summer pike landed on that gear is going to be well and truly knackered !

 

[Chris Bishop]

This was the leader column in last week's AT, which was guested by matt hayes for some reason.

I didn't agree with the idea that fly anglers are responsible. As Rob says a fly is far less likely to damage a fish than a big jerkbait with 3/0 hooks, or even a pair of size 6's stuck in an unattended deadbait.

There are issues about all-year-round fishing. You have to face up to the fact they're getting it 12 months solid on some waters.

 

[Chris Bishop]

In similar vein, what about Des Taylor's Livebait Ban - It's What Cheats Deserve... piece in today's AT..?

I've got a video somewhere of Des Piking at Linear. He has a load of live koi carp in a bait cage.

I'm certain there is an innocent explanation for this.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Gary..I agree entirely.

At the end of the day, ANY inadequate gear could lead to problems, but Flyfishing has been singled out several times by big names as being a cause for poor winter fishing. i am sorry, but I am not going to take the blame for that one.

I know for a fact both Hayes and Taylor have fished for summer pike using lures...i have seen the videos and read the articles. Also, both dont have any "guilt" when it comes to fishing for spawn bound females in Scotland, the Baltic or wherever come spring time (Old close season) when i am sure this would do much greater harm to a Pike than being played, handled well, and returned in the summer when they are at the peak of there fitnes.

 

[Colin Brett]

One other thing that may well put the Pike off at these trout venues is the very fact that Matt Hayes and friends [alledgedly] get to try out these venues prior to ordinary fee paying Piker. As Rob says Pike soon wise up to Lures, it has happened since Rutland first opened in Oct. 1982. The first few days were great, but after that it was a struggle. Same the next year and ever since. Get on early and you are in with a chance, conditions allowing.
I must admit I had not heard of a wire trace ban at Grafham or Rutland. That makes me a naughty boy! Shame.

Colin

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Colin..its a bit spooky..but I was reading a Trout Fisherman last night from a year ago...and it was in there about the traces..i will look up the article tonight and let u know for sure which one it was.

 

[David Will]

Bob Church wrote about the incident in an article in a fly fishing mag. The article was trying to get fly anglers to target the Pike/ Zeds.I have a copy.He lost a fish estimated at 30lb judged against his friends which was landed thanks to wire.
Rob I accept what you say about Pike wising up but on Grafham (as an example) dead baits are allowed unyet few fish fell to these. Lures caught most of the few caught.
I nearly fished it but research by me (tight git) suggested I would be wasting my money. My mate went and indeed felt it was a waste.
I do not want to turn this into a Grafham debate but some of the trout in there are big.As a result big lures both fly and conventional catch Trout.The trout anglers know this so use big lures (6 inch plus).Inevitably Pike get caught all year.Wire traces ? no chance they are after Trout. Can they use them ? yes , but they are after trout and a wire trace in their minds does not enhance their chances.How many die as a result ? God only knows.So in this case Rob maybe (I hate to admit) Mr Hayes has a point.It is worth pointing out that their are fewer responsible Pikers than there are responsible ones ,part timers or otherwise.Hence the gravel pit I referred to earlier.I wholly adhere to and applaud the Oct 1st rule for Pike not because I want to interfere with the responsible anglers but to protect our fishing from the idiots.

 

[James stewart]

I would certainly agree with what all that has been said about safe guarding Pike.
Fly fishing with trout gear is simply insane and irresponsible...there is a big difference between a Pike and a Trout....the gear is not up to it and in summer as Colin said you will end up with a fish which fights to the point of exhaustion and death.
Fishing before 1st of october...I am guilty....I usually start in Mid-September...not any earlier.
I have read in some of the Irish magazines
articles asking for a closed season on Pike...thing is some of those who ask go fishing for them in the summer....not exactly on the level.
Summer weather and catching Pike don't sit well with me...my mate (Des) and I leave them well alone until things start to cool down...certainly not before mid-September.
By the way...thank you to all who posted regarding trace materials...wire was my main problem ...be it one which has arisen in the past month....I just have lost faith in that which I used.
Tight lines to all.
J.S.

 

[Ray Bewick]

Rob wrote - "Pike thrive on neglect...increase the pressure and they naturally melt away. They are still there...just not so stupid"

Ardingly (Sussex) reservoir Trout res at the time is on my doorstep it was in W.A hands.
It opened 15 + yrs ago for a Piking experiment from Oct 1st. All the 'names' came & fished; an Angling colleague of the time took a 34.8 from boat on a trolled trout live one of the best recorded. I fished from the bank that season & took two fish, best 12-6 it was bloody hard & cold however I could just have been crap! (Probable). Another group mate experienced similar results from a boat, & he was a very well respected local name! Then the water was sold off, presumably as a very going concern.

Anyone with a fish finder had a huge advantage & the likelihood of a big Pike falling to them was vastly increased. Some of these 'Anglers' were not so experienced as they thought at handling & unhooking big Pike (20?s) IMHO, the pressure on the fish was intense.
I am indicating that due to certain 'inadequacies' a decrease in the catch rate was experienced, nothing to do with fly fishing, those big pike chomped the 3lb + Bream that ran the drop offs.

Prior to the Piking experiment Jacks taken by 'fly' fishermen & were deposited up the bank! Now that was the attitude of the 'fly' fisherman of the era, thankfully they have died out & an enlightened generation are now about.

As to tackle, Rob is more then capable of advise in that respect. My only comment would be that my old 'cheapo' weight 8-9 Shakespeare whisker 10' will stop & turn on their backs double figure Carp if used correctly & with the correct leader / hook length.

I'll stop the ramble now, but consider this; the above fishery when out of W.A hands bought large Pike from other waters as soon as there was a decline in size & catch rate! & was very peeved at loosing the first big Bewl Pike. A commercial decision, certainly nothing to do with the fly boys.

Sorry for rambling ? please take it as constructive comment!.

Regards

 

[Charlie Bettell]

There is nothing wrong with fly fishing for pike - i.e. if done sensibly!!

I boated various 20lb plus pike this river open season using flies. The biggest of the season so far, coming to a client, Phil Mellor, which weighed in at 28lb. I, personally, boated pike to 24lb this summer using fly tackle.

I can honestly say that flies cause far less damaged to pike than plugs with OTT hooks - i.e. anything over hook size 6. Plugs, equipped with OTT hooks, have caused no end of damage to pike on my local waters.

I have yet see see one pike damaged badly by one of my single hook flies.

 

[Tim Kelly]

Surely there's a difference between a bit of superficial damage from a treble and terminal exhaustion from using inadequate tackle? That is the potential problem with fly fishing. The way some people play pike on deadbait tackle is hopelessly soft, but with fly tackle the inexperienced and ill equipped angler could end up fannying around for ages.

Tim

 

[GrahamM]

I suppose the answer to this is that you need to use fly tackle that's up to the job, ie, stepped up fly tackle that is capable of handling pike. Plenty of big salmon, a species that fights harder than pike, are landed on fly tackle. Add a wire trace to a salmon fly outfit and I can't see anything wrong with that.

I do, however, have my doubts about jerkbait fishing. When I tried jerkbaiting, and when I've seen others using it, there were a number of fish foul-hooked. In my case it could have been lack of experience of the method, but when I've watched those who are supposed to be expert at it, it still looked like a method that just rips big trebles through the water, albeit they are attached to a fish-imitating object.

But I'm willing to be educated about the method by someone who knows more about it than I do.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

As i stated before, fish for Pike with inadequate gear and the Pike will have problems. My fly rods stop a Pike in its tracks, because i use a balanced outfit designed for Pike. I have lost count of the amount of "Pikers" fishing venues with inadequate carp rods/reels/line/indicators etc etc. Example, a well know Lea Valley angler fishing 4 pound test curve rods, but with 8 pound line!!

Grafham has been fished with huge flies for the Brownies for decades. I beleieve there is one fly called the "Blackbird" that is huge...and successful. Now..in my experience, when u hook a Pike on the fly, it is almost always in the tip of the snout or the scissors. The only fish I have had hooked slightly deeper have been Jacks hitting BIG flies. If the pike is lost, that single will be relatively easy to get rid of. There is none of the problems with throats being stiched together with trebles etc. Most fly anglers are only using size 10 or 8 hooks anyway. In a 30 pound pike, that wont even be noticed by them!! I dont belive Pike lost by Trout anglers accidently are in any real danger at all.

Graham is right with the salmon..its common practice to use a single handed 8 weight rod for summer salmon...with no problems at all.

 

[Tim Kelly]

The danger with assuming that if you can land a salmon on it , it will be OK for pike, is that salmon have traditionally all been killed, so it doesn't matter how exhausted they are when you eventually get them in. Pike suffer with extended playing, especially in the warmer weather. I'm sure that with the release of salmon becoming more of an accepted practise people will start to realise the benefits of heavy, by current standards, tackle.
Rob, I would have thought that if you are only using 8 or 10 hooks you would find that larger (1/0 to 6/0) hooks would allow you to put even more pressure on the fish.

Tim

 

[Chris Bishop]

I've got reservations about jerkbaits with big hooks.

I know sensible anglers probably crop their hooks out, rather than rip them; but some obviously don't.

While it's all very well to talk about rods fly and bait anglers use being too soft, what about using a poker, 80lb line and 2 or 3/0 trebles - at the end of the day something's got to give.

I've never caught so many blind fish, or fish with holes in them, split jaws etc as I have the last couple of seasons.

A lost fly probably causes minimal damage, certainly less than a fish which breaks off towing a trace , or swallows down a cracked off baited rig.

The real issue is who these people think they are.

Who promoted all these methods in the first place..?

Whose sponsor sells jerk bait rods, fly rods etc etc..?

Surely the tackle industry has promoted lure fishing, esp jerk baiting, jigging with ultra-lite gear etc.