BIG ROACH a book by Mark Wintle

[watatoad]

The way of the Toad - thoughts on BIG ROACH a book by Mark Wintle

A very disappointing read it just was not a long enough book it ended far sooner than I wanted it too, you should read it you'll be sure to enjoy the depth of details and the attention to Mark Wintle's expeditions. So Mark Wintle come on get writing its sequel. I do not know the author Mark Wintle and my first contact with him was long after I had read his first independently authored book Big Roach, our first contact was to gently cross swords over a point of description, that being I do not call a Roach under 3 ½ lbs a big Roach…hehehe…each to his own.

Many of you who know me will know I am an angler and some might say to a point of being a Roach fanatic of nearly 60 years standing.

The book like a few of the books that over the years that have been written on the very specialist subject area of a single fish species in this case big Roach fishing was little short of amazing. Being a far more enjoyable read than the expected rather dry treatise, I was anticipating when I first saw the book for sale. Surprisingly Mark Wintle’s book Big Roach took me on a journey from the basics of learning about a particular fish species and various things that effect its growth and development through tackle, hookbaits and groundbaits to techniques. Then comes the adventures and experiences as we journey from Mark Wintles early beginnings to more recent times visiting places that will be well known to a good few touching here and there on striking moments and eventually coming to a mention of some very good anglers and Roach specialists. The book has numerous black and white and many colour plates throughout.

A very good work and a very remarkable one for the first solo book from this author. What do I think about it, its certainly an essential book for any serious Roach angler and the would be specimen hunter as it is a book that teaches without being a tutorial or a dry scholastic work and is a must have book for all serious and pleasure river anglers alike regardless of what species you are after. For those anglers who would like to catch a 2lb Roach or larger this book will certainly help you to get nearer to achieving your dream. I have already read the book twice and I expect I will read it again over the coming dark nights of winter well when I am not out chasing my favourite quarry. I am sure anyone reading this book will enjoy it as much as I have.

 

[dezza]

If you do not call a roach of say 3lbs 7oz a big roach, then we lesser mortals would like to see a book from yourself mate.

And some photos of the many 3 1/2 lb roach you catch, just to prove it.

In the real world, a 2lb roach is very big and a 3 pounder a monster.

And I am happy to get any roach over a pound from any water in the UK.

---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:01 ----------

A very disappointing read

Followed by

---------- Post added at 00:23 ---------- Previous post was at 00:22 ----------

A very good work

Make up your mind!

 

[noknot]

Ron, I think you need to read the post again! Then you can remove your crass post!!! mg:

 

[no-one in particular]

I love a 12oz roach sometimes

Dont know if this is relevant but, I always judge a fish against the average size of the water be it roach, tench or whatever. So, a 12oz roach is a very good roach from some of the waters I fish and an average one from others. I suspect some may laugh at a 12oz roach but, I have been very happy to get one on some waters. And a 1lb fish would be outstanding. There you go, I have stuck my oar in.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Re: I love a 12oz roach sometimes

For carp, tench, bream and barbel the size of target "specimen" fish has risen substantially since the 1960s in line with records. Various reasons for this. Roach on the other hand are at least as rare at say 3Ib as they ever were - if not more so. I would say 3Ib is still the unattainable target and 2Ib a slightly more realistic one, with a 3Ib roach about as possible as a 60Ib carp. A big roach is 1Ib 8oz in about 98% of rivers. You would need to have access to the Hampshire Avon, Dorset Stour etc or a time machine and can go back to the 1970s Wensum for any prospect of a 3Ib roach in a river.

 

[watatoad]

For all those who think I am wrong that's o.k. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me this is how a look at it.

A monster Roach I think that is over 4lb

a specimen is a big/large Roach I think that is a 3.5lb to 4lb

a good or medium Roach I think is one between 2lb and 3.5lb

a interesting or fair Roach I think is one between 1lb and 2lb

a average or nice Roach I think is one between 1oz and 1lb

That is my division of Roach just mine others can call whatever divisions they choose but those are mine.

I believe there are a lot more large Roach around than many believe and I know I am not alone in this thought.

As I have already said read the book if you want to go after Big Roach or big fish of any species.

However if you only read the first part of my post and got upset because without reading the full post you cannot fully understand what I am saying, perhaps you should go back and read it properly and thoroughly.

Because when you go after the specimen or big fish of any species you really have to pay attention to ALL THE LITTLE DETAILS and that is my opinion.

Instead of moaning buy the book and read it then judge for yourself. I loved the book and I think any reader of it will thoroughly enjoy the book.

I only even mentioned the disagreement I had with Mark Wintle to show I did not read his book and write about it to have a dig nor to promote a friends book, I read it because it was a book on Roach.

 

[Neil Maidment]

The way of the Toad - thoughts on BIG ROACH a book by Mark Wintle

... So Mark Wintle come on get writing its sequel. I do not know the author Mark Wintle and my first contact with him was long after I had read his first independently authored book Big Roach....

An interesting review but very confusing:

You say your first contact with Mark was "long after I read his first independently authored book"??

"Big Roach" is Mark's first independently authored book and has only just been published having been launched less than 8 weeks ago. It was the culmination of many, many years work.

I too would love to see a sequel, but not sure what's left to say on the particular subject other than an update on any additional captures or hitherto unknown revelations, which brings me to....

.... your opinion on how big roach should be classified. An opinion you are most definitely entitled to, but I would love to see and hear how you arrived at such an opinion.

******

Note for Watatoad: I've deleted the duplicated thread as this one has the responses.

 

[watatoad]

An interesting review but very confusing:

You say your first contact with Mark was "long after I read his first independently authored book"??

"Big Roach" is Mark's first independently authored book and has only just been published having been launched less than 8 weeks ago. It was the culmination of many, many years work.

I too would love to see a sequel, but not sure what's left to say on the particular subject other than an update on any additional captures or hitherto unknown revelations, which brings me to....

.... your opinion on how big roach should be classified. An opinion you are most definitely entitled to, but I would love to see and hear how you arrived at such an opinion.

Yes my first contact with Mark Wintle was last Tuesday 6th September 2011. http://www.fishingmagic.com/forums/coarse-fishing/238381-roach-location-behaviour-2.html. I was notified firstly prelaunch then within a day or two of the books first release and had to wait until after Mark Wintle had signed the book to get my copy.

Mark Wintle can expand on the expedition's or perhaps spend a season solely targeting Roach on each of our large rivers and perhaps a smaller river in each County then work like mad (I guess) writing up the book in the closed season or at night after he has been fishing...hehehe

EDIT:
Maybe get different angler who each fish one of our larger river's and/or smaller county river's to let him know what they used (bait wise...hopeful Toad....hehehe) and how their trips went on. Just a thought, biased because I would love to see more fishing our rivers.
END EDIT:

I took the rod caught record and just divided it as I felt was right.

 

[Philip]

So just to be clear mr toad your opinion ( which you are of coarse entitled to) on
what is a big, medium or small Roach is based on dividing the current record weight
rather than fish you have actually caught?

 

[watatoad]

So just to be clear mr toad your opinion ( which you are of coarse entitled to) on
what is a big, medium or small Roach is based on dividing the current record weight
rather than fish you have actually caught?

That's right, its just the way I was first told to do it when I was a small child and I have always done it the same for all species even the few species I never fish for. The same has applied to the many many anglers with whom I have had the honour and pleasure to fish with. Perhaps I may have seen fish caught that nobody would believe from places that nobody would consider perhaps not, that is my business and the business of those I may have been with or not I will not say one way or the other. Other than to say I believe there are more Big Roach in our rivers than many would or could believe.

I must also say although I do carry both a measure a camera and scales (the scales I have professionally checked each year), unless one of the guys I am fishing with really insists I do not even weigh my fish, nor do I carry or use a keepnet if you are not in a match why hamper yourself with the burden of extra weight. Each fish to me is an individual and each catch is an individual thing and I take pleasure from each outing and each fish I catch whether that is a 1oz Dace or a 10lb Roach...hehehe. For me its not about filling a keepnet nor how big or heavy a fish is its about finding and catching a fish that is in great condition, if that fish is healthy and in good condition then regardless of size or weight I am as happy as a sandboy. I call myself a pleasure angler perhaps I do lean towards species hunting maybe even to the point of specimen hunting, but essentially I love angling and for me that is not about what size or weight a fish is nor is it about a love of boasting or telling tall stories its about going out and catching a fish, enjoying the challenge, being at one with nature. Its simply a love of angling.

EDIT:
During my fishing life I have been fortunate to fish with anglers whom I consider to be great, perhaps they are not all famous or well known but in my eyes that does not make them any the less great. Mostly have have been men older than I am now (I'm more than well into my 60's) although there have been a few exceptions to that age comment, they have been without exception one and all keen and experienced anglers who like me do not need or look for the approval nor the applaud of fellow anglers, Just confident and certain of their own personal abilities, skills and knowledge and simply take pleasure in what they catch. Sure maybe this is a more unusual attitude in today's world, but it is mine I compete against fish, the weather, conditions and myself and that is enough for me. I have over the years experienced a lot, learned a lot and even seen a lot, for me that has been enough I have a pretty good knowledge of tackle, techniques, baits and methods and every day I look to learn more. My standard jest or joke is I am after a 10lb Roach (well it would be something) but it is an obvious jest, a joke, if others cannot see that sorry its my way.

I do not and never have said I know everything, sure I can be pedantic on definitions when it comes to styles or float names that's just because I have seen people really get mixed up when two people describe a method or style to a third party and because of a misuse of a name completely fail to help the third party who is looking for advice, why? usually because some famous or would be famous person is wrongly claiming that they invented this or that of mis-describing a method or article (float) which perhaps they themselves are not too sure about or were a victim of a mis-explanation.
END EDIT:

 

[Neil Maidment]

That's right, its just the way I was first told to do it when I was a small child and I have always done it the same for all species even the few species I never fish for.

I must also say although I do carry both a measure and scales which I have professionally checked each year, unless one of the guys I am fishing with really insists I do not even weigh my fish. Each fish to me is an individual and each catch is an individual thing and I take pleasure from each outing and each fish I catch whether that is a 1oz Dace or a 10lb Roach...hehehe. For me its not about filling a keepnet nor how big or heavy a fish is its about finding and catching a fish that is in great condition, if that fish is healthy and in good condition then regardless of size or weight I am as happy as a sandboy. I call myself a pleasure angler perhaps I do lean towards species hunting maybe even to the point of specimen hunting, but essentially I love angling and for me that is not about what size or weight a fish is nor is it about a love of boasting or telling tall stories its about going out and catching a fish, enjoying the challenge, being at one with nature. Its simply a love of angling.

Couldn't agree more.

But:

Divided by what and in what context? And over what period - last year, decade, century?

Sorry, I don't understand the mechanics.

Although everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinions, I think context is important. 40 years ago I would say a 2lb+ roach from, lets say the Dorset Stour, was very much a specimen but attainable with some effort. Now, that description applies to a 1lb+ roach.

 

[watatoad]

Only once have I ever told of the weight of some fish I had caught from a place everybody else said was barren even armed with two photo's and three witnesses still many other anglers refused to believe me so that was the end of me declaring my catches and places I fish. To anyone outside my little group of close friends.

I use baits that people don't believe and old fashioned concoctions and mixes which again some think I am making up for some reason or other, so now those receipts will go to the grave with me. I use and have used methods and techniques that people would laugh at and they too will vanish once I have left this world, I am the youngest bar one of a sad group of old anglers who simply love angling for angling's sake, but that is o.k. it is the duty of youth to replace each older generation in turn, so no hard feelings there. Each generation has to learn in its own way. Perhaps I will have been lucky and some of the advice I have tried to share may help an angler or two in the times to come but if not that's fine too, they say you can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

Maybe I am full of s**t and crazy, the few who have tried out my advice already know what they think and that is their business.

---------- Post added at 06:36 ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 ----------

Couldn't agree more.

But:

Divided by what and in what context? And over what period - last year, decade, century?

Sorry, I don't understand the mechanics.

Although everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinions, I think context is important. 40 years ago I would say a 2lb+ roach from, lets say the Dorset Stour, was very much a specimen but attainable with some effort. Now, that description applies to a 1lb+ roach.

No mechanics just the way I divide up the national record perhaps based a little on what I have seen over the years and that does not mean personally caught. But it is with consideration that very very few anglers actually specialise in concentrating on any one species except Carp and yes I do realise that there are groups who do target individual species but they are few in numbers compared to how many fish and or hold rod licenses overall.

However we are straying from the topic although I am willing to ask for our little chat to be moved into a new topic all of its own.

I would just like to see more anglers read Mark Wintle's book and as a result perhaps get excited or interested enough to perhaps get more anglers fishing our wonderful rivers

 

[Neil Maidment]

It seems to me that your angling world, thoughts and methods would make a very good book in its own right. If not that, then at least an article for FM would make fascinating reading. Doesn't need any references to where and what but such a "different" approach would be a very refreshing read.

 

[watatoad]

Hehehe, me write more than a post hehehe sorry I don't think I am good enough I have almost no short term memory and have to read so many times and even then add lots and do edits...many thanks but sorry I just am not good enough.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Watatoad - you do make some excellent observations and brim with experience. The one which i think stands out and I would hope to agree with is that big roach are more common/widespead than we actually think. There are few anglers that dedicate lengthy periods to catching them unlike carp, catfish, even tench. Where they are located but the dedicated few there is also less likely to be a circus and multiple repeat captures like there is with carp. Big Roach are also about the hardest fish to catch in my opinion even once they have been located. However, I remember when i worked at the NRA in the early 1990s i saw many huge roach (well huge to me at 2-3Ib) that were being held in holding tanks after fish rescues. This occurred several times over the years and the fish were taken from places where you couldnt imagine them existing even at that time

 

[Paul Boote]

"This occurred several times over the years and the fish were taken from places where you couldnt imagine them existing even at that time"


Yes. They're elusive beasties. Sitting beside a no-name river with a girlfriend and her little girls a few weeks ago, bird-feeding, picnic-ing, sunning (well, in as much as the past summer could do) and larking about, I watched one, then two, then a third, and finally a total of five absolute belting roach swim up out of a "deep" below us to take the bread roll I'd just happened to wet and squidge-up and throw into the shallows in front of us to attract some minnows to show the girls...

I'll be fishing for them soon.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Watatoad: Just out of interest and because you speak with some authority, I would be pleased to see a list of best fish caught by yourself. No need for water type or how caught as it would be meaningless in this context.
At the moment all I read from you seems to be based on nod,nod wink,wink and 'really wish I could say but I can't' without any specifics whatsoever. Not to say you have to back up what you write with figures but I need some substance rather thasn a lot of words which says little....In one post you say "I use baits/methods that will go to the grave with me" which is fine, BUT why say it as it doesn't mean diddly for those reading it
I have no doubt you are a very good fishermen-with 130-odd rods you must have caught something- but IMHO if you were a little more 'open' I would take you more seriously whereas at present I cannot make up my mind as to wether you are a bullshi$$er or not! Why not share all these methods "other people would laugh at" with FM'ers and let them decide what is laughable and what is not....Can you se what I'm saying??

I am also an angler of 60 odd years experience and,as such I think I can, generally speaking, read anyones posts on FM and (more or less) tell if they know their stuff and I'm quite sure you're in this catagory but posting on FM is, IMO, to impart knowledge to others and not to spout on about how good you are or offer such ridiculous figures of what constitutes a big roach which seems to be based on what you were told as child rather than anything of substance or personal catches-unless you can show otherwise......

I,among others have asked your opinion on rods etc and the advice you offer is, seemingly, very good so I know you have knowledge, BUT its this undertone of silly secrecy that doesn't (for me anyway!) do you any favours. If you don't want to share your thoughts/ideas then why post on FM at all??

Personally If I have something that works well for me (I also make up different pastes etc using odd flavours!) I try very hard to make the knowledge available to all, via FM, to help others, in some small way, to catch more or bigger fish and I suggset thats the way of most who post. If someone asks me on the bank how I'm catching fish I tell them, in the knowledge that they cannot affect my catch(es) in anyway whatsoever.

I agree with whoever said you should write a book.....................sort of 'put your money where your mouth is' in the nicest possible way!!

Keep posting though.........(add a smilie thing here!)

 

[watatoad]

Hehehe. you're all just a bunch of pushy bullies, well I did it this afternoon I wrote a short story took me nearly 3 hours to write 6 pages do you know that was about 3,300 words crikey and I am willing to bet you will all come around to my way of thinking that I cant write for toffy. Although having sent it to Neil Maidment I doubt it will see the light of day again. People go on courses and even do degree's before they become writers me ha. you'll most likely find me at the riverside or making a model, perhaps even painting miniature soldiers (just like toy soldiers but all to a scale and historically acurate)...hehehe I don't even read fictional books. although I do have a couple of Terry Pratchett Discworld novels she who must be obeyed got them for me when my eyes were not too good.

Secrecy that has been a considerable part of my angling life...worse than the Freemasons. My baits are not popular because anglers to-day are a pretty gentle and delicate bunch preferring baits to come prepackaged and wrapped in plastic often in pellet form, to my more natural basis and very rugged outdoor approach which does tend to cause concern and considerable squeamishness. However I am more than willing to share many receipts that will not upset the average angler and in pm's to anyone actually guaranteeing not to be too squeamish and delicate who asks, yet only to end up moaning at me. Happened a lot has that...hehehe I have only fished with pellets maybe a 100 or so times.

I personally believe that any angler who seriously wants to catch better than average fish and to catch them more often perhaps regularly. Only has a very simple task read up on your quarry, go for walks along any piece of water and study your quarry, then try put into practice what you have learned. I am not saying you will do brilliantly on your first attempt but you can at least learn from every attempt there is no magic wand no magic bait. Its all about practice, observation, study, trial and error then careful consideration, deep thoughts, effort, very honest dissection of your actual attempts, then perhaps rethinking your strategy and a new planned course of action. Sorry there are no shortcuts nor in reality should you be considering any fast track you are after a wild creature at least give it some dignity and respect, treat it as a worthy opponent. Then and only then will you begin to understand just what I am talking about. Don't blame the weather or pass it off saying there are no fish or they are not feeding, its your chosen job to catch them without buck passing any failure you experience.

Crikey I am making it sound like the way of watatoad or perhaps Toady and the Zen of fishing...hehehe The older or more experienced or more determined will understand to really succeed in angling it takes 100% concentrated thought and effort.

But here again perhaps you are best just thinking of me as a nutter or a bulls**ter or perhaps just crazy I don't mind, I am an easy Toad.

 

[Bob Hornegold]

Hehehe. you're all just a bunch of pushy bullies,

Secrecy that has been a considerable part of my angling life...worse than the Freemasons.

I personally believe that any angler who seriously wants to catch better than average fish and to catch them more often perhaps regularly. Only has a very simple task read up on your quarry, go for walks along any piece of water and study your quarry, then try put into practice what you have learned. I am not saying you will do brilliantly on your first attempt but you can at least learn from every attempt there is no magic wand no magic bait. Its all about practice, observation, study, trial and error then careful consideration, deep thoughts, effort, very honest dissection of your actual attempts, then perhaps rethinking your strategy and a new planned course of action.

Can't argue with those bits !!

I would add, being on the Right Waters and Time.

Bob

 

[no-one in particular]

Hehehe. you're all just a bunch of pushy bullies, well I did it this afternoon I wrote a short story took me nearly 3 hours to write 6 pages do you know that was about 3,300 words crikey and I am willing to bet you will all come around to my way of thinking that I cant write for toffy. Although having sent it to Neil Maidment I doubt it will see the light of day again. People go on courses and even do degree's before they become writers me ha. you'll most likely find me at the riverside or making a model, perhaps even painting miniature soldiers (just like toy soldiers but all to a scale and historically acurate)...hehehe I don't even read fictional books. although I do have a couple of Terry Pratchett Discworld novels she who must be obeyed got them for me when my eyes were not too good.

Secrecy that has been a considerable part of my angling life...worse than the Freemasons. My baits are not popular because anglers to-day are a pretty gentle and delicate bunch preferring baits to come prepackaged and wrapped in plastic often in pellet form, to my more natural basis and very rugged outdoor approach which does tend to cause concern and considerable squeamishness. However I am more than willing to share many receipts that will not upset the average angler and in pm's to anyone actually guaranteeing not to be too squeamish and delicate who asks, yet only to end up moaning at me. Happened a lot has that...hehehe I have only fished with pellets maybe a 100 or so times.

I personally believe that any angler who seriously wants to catch better than average fish and to catch them more often perhaps regularly. Only has a very simple task read up on your quarry, go for walks along any piece of water and study your quarry, then try put into practice what you have learned. I am not saying you will do brilliantly on your first attempt but you can at least learn from every attempt there is no magic wand no magic bait. Its all about practice, observation, study, trial and error then careful consideration, deep thoughts, effort, very honest dissection of your actual attempts, then perhaps rethinking your strategy and a new planned course of action. Sorry there are no shortcuts nor in reality should you be considering any fast track you are after a wild creature at least give it some dignity and respect, treat it as a worthy opponent. Then and only then will you begin to understand just what I am talking about. Don't blame the weather or pass it off saying there are no fish or they are not feeding, its your chosen job to catch them without buck passing any failure you experience.

Crikey I am making it sound like the way of watatoad or perhaps Toady and the Zen of fishing...hehehe The older or more experienced or more determined will understand to really succeed in angling it takes 100% concentrated thought and effort.

But here again perhaps you are best just thinking of me as a nutter or a bulls**ter or perhaps just crazy I don't mind, I am an easy Toad.

OK, what are these old disused baits; would love to know!