British record chub ???

Neneman Nick · May 31, 2010

I have been reading a book today,"The dumpy pocket book for anglers" published in 1960,compiled by Jack Thorndyke,editor of "Angling Times".
I allways like looking back at the old brit record fish lists and comparing them with todays weights etc....
There was one on the list that i found intresting....chub.

Here is what it says.....
This list of british record fish (including northern ireland) as at january,1960,is recognised by the british record (rod caught)fish committee,secretary of which is P.H.Tombleson,newspaper house,broadway,peterboro,northants. (i think he means cambs)

CHUB 10lbs 8oz 0dr (captor) Dr J.A Cameron (where caught) river Annan,1955.

I have looked on the BRFC site,which is part of the Angling Trust one and it says that the current record is 9lbs 5oz.

If this is correct,what has happened to Dr Cameron`s fish,for it not to be the current bona-fide record ????

Ray Daywalker Clarke · May 31, 2010

I think you may find that the fish was removed from the list, as others have been, because it was later found that it wasn't a true Chub.

I can't see there being any other reason, other than that.

Fred Bonney · May 31, 2010

Nick, Peterborough was in Northants before boundary changes.Caught on a fly.
Dr Cameron fed it to his cats! It was accepted as the record for a while but when the record lists were re-examined (1968?) it was removed as there was insufficient evidence.

Neneman Nick · May 31, 2010

Fed to his cats !!!!
Many thanks for clearing that up Fred.
Out of intrest Fred,do you know how many more records have been removed due to insufficient evidence ???
Ray....true chub ??? Do they hybridise easily with other fishes ???

Stealph Viper · Jun 1, 2010

It might not have been a chub, might have been a Grass Carp.

Might just be that his scales were a little inaccurate as well.

Could have been the Record genuinely, however a lack of evidence decrees that as not legible.

We will never know for sure .................... breaks in to song (It's a Mystery)

Mark Wintle · Jun 1, 2010

In 1968 the BRFC reviewed all the records on the basis of evidence that had been provided.

The Cameron chub lacked evidence on several criteria; weight, identity, witnesses. It was not a grass carp (not even in the country in the 50s), nor a hybrid.

Other fish removed included silver bream (4-08), dace (1-8-5), barbel (14-06 x 3).

Dave Burr · Jun 1, 2010

Mind you, this is the same record committee that refused to ratify Chris Yates' 51lb carp because they hadn't seen it and therefore couldn't prove that it was in fact a carp.

The record list has been chewed over and spat out a number of times in the past and for a variety of reasons. Many of the old records were a tad suspicious or uncorroborated and had to go.

Nowadays records don't seem as important as they did back then. The last twenty years has seen so many broken due to the increase growth of fish, it is less of an event to see one broken. When I was a lad I knew them all and anything that came close to a long established record was major news.

If our fish start to shrink due to any one of the many reasons already discussed on this site, I wonder if at some stage the list will be re-jigged and, for example, those monster barbel will be removed in order that the angler of the day has a realistic chance of a record?

Its happened before.

Mark Wintle · Jun 1, 2010

I don't think fish will be removed from the list simply because we are unable to beat them any more! The most recent removal was a record rainbow trout that the captor confessed to finding dead, i.e. he didn't catch it!

One record I forgot to mention that got removed in 1968 was the old and very spurious grayling record of 7-02.

It is possible that some current records may be removed but that's another story...

the indifferent crucian · Jun 1, 2010

Mark Wintle said:
In 1968 the BRFC reviewed all the records on the basis of evidence that had been provided.

The Cameron chub lacked evidence on several criteria; weight, identity, witnesses. It was not a grass carp (not even in the country in the 50s), nor a hybrid.

Other fish removed included silver bream (4-08), dace (1-8-5), barbel (14-06 x 3).

Ahhh! were they not? THAT explains why Donald Leney was stocking King Carp to control weeds in estate lakes. I've asked some very prominent people in the angling world about this issue an no-one has ever said that before !

Thanks for clearing that up. Mark !

michael townsend · Jun 1, 2010

Roach and rudd Mark?

Ray Daywalker Clarke · Jun 1, 2010

Nick,

As far as I know you do get Chub Hybrid, and as there seems to be a lack of evidence on many counts, then who is to say it wasn't a hybird...??

There are a number of fish that have been removed for one reason or another over the years, and those that should have been records and never made it, even with all the correct evidence and witnesses,

Jason Baileys Barbel springs to mind, a true record that never got on the list, and backed up by just about as much evidence that you could get, he also had the backing of a number of know Barbel anglers, but the then record fish committee had already stuck their heads in the sand, due to the AT spreading stories of the fish having no credibility, yet they didnt have any themself.

cg74 · Jun 1, 2010

The river Annan, 10lb 8oz chub, not impossible, just rather implausible!!

Probably about as much a double figure chub as last season's Wye double.

The man holding the scales must wear a hat like this>:j

---------- Post added at 13:53 ---------- Previous post was at 13:49 ----------

Ray Daywalker Clarke said:
Nick,

As far as I know you do get Chub Hybrid, and as there seems to be a lack of evidence on many counts, then who is to say it wasn't a hybird...??
.

What species do chub successfuly hybridize with??

Mark Wintle · Jun 1, 2010

Chub can certainly hybridise with roach and bleak, I've very occasionally had both from the Thames. The Annan chub could not have been either as these hybrids are unlikely to get to over 10lbs! In the case of the bleak hybrid a few ounces is the usual size and the roachxchub about 4lbs.

The Annan held lots of average sized chub in those days but the captor knew little about coarse fish as he was far more interested in salmon, the body of the fish was supposedly fed to his cats, and one way or another the story didn't stand up to much scrutiny a dozen years later.

Ray Daywalker Clarke · Jun 1, 2010

I am sure that I was told Chub and Dace have been hybirds also.

michael townsend · Jun 1, 2010

There's a number of good sized chub - bream hybrids in the Stainforth and Keadby canal.

S-Kippy · Jun 1, 2010

The so called 7lb grayling was always my favourite. I was never convinced it was even a grayling let alone 7lb.

Neneman Nick · Jun 2, 2010

What was the actual criteria then,for actually claiming a british record fish,back in those days ???
It sounds like a very slap hazzard affair.

Mark Wintle · Jun 2, 2010

Prior to about 1953 The Angler's News and Fishing Gazette unofficially kept records. After 1953 The Angling Times set up the first committee which then passed to the NFA before evolving into something similar to that today in about 1957. It was realised in 1968 that some old records were suspect and so all records were re-examined. After that you had to produce the body of the fish to claim a record not that that was always enough to stop false claims and mis-identity. After the Yates carp controversy (there were two lists around for a while) the rules changed to witness and photographic evidence. So the committee itself has had a chequered history.

The haphazardness comes from difficulties arising with crucians, silver bream, roach, rudd, seatrout, confused scientific advice and also these old historic claims, some of which went back as far as 1888.

To add to the mix it's likely that the following species have had fish authentically caught that would break the current record; dace, barbel, grayling, silver bream and crucians even if the claims cannot be verified.

As for dace x chub hybrids - whilst they are compatible their spawning time is too far apart for it to ever happen. Roach could also hybridise with dace but again they don't spawn close enough for it to ever happen.

peter crabtree · Jun 2, 2010

A few years ago I caught what I thought was a good sized roach from the river Gade (Herts, 1lb 09ish) until my mate son of meldrew pointed out the tail , which was obviously not a true roach tail but in most other characteristics resembled a roach. His opinion was it was a roach chub hybrid, and I had to agree with him, somehow a hybrid just doesn't look right.
There was also the tale of an angler who caught a 9lb ?? chub from the Thames in Reading town centre, and put it back thinking the record was bigger.

BTW todays angling times has a picture and story about an alleged 6lb1oz perch caught by the owner of a fishery. He returned it, and didn't claim it because the only witness was his wife, and next of kin don't count apparently.

904_cannon · Jun 2, 2010

A few years back there was a photograph of a chub-rudd hybrid in the CSG magazine. A very nice looking fish despite its parents apparent loose life style.

There's been mountains of documentation about the Cameron chub, mostly about the lack of documentation

I seem to remember there was a section in the John Bailey book, Chub and Dace I think, about the Dr Cameron fish by Fred Sykes. Fred actually wrote to the late Dr's wife and concluded the fish probably wasn't as stated
What Fred doesn't know about the river Annan and its chub isn't worth knowing

British record chub ???

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