To all those who are concerned

This is a quote by Geoff from Bobs lurker thread.


geoffmaynard; There's a common misconception that forums are the most popular pages on websites. The stats very plainly say otherwise - it was the same on the other websites I've edited too. This is why, if someone has something to say, it is far better to say it to thousands of people via an article we can put on the front page rather than a post to a few hundred who read the forums.

If that really is true Geoff and thousands (?) are viewing then why have all the coarse fishing tackle shops and mail order companies who used to advertise on FM disappeared?

There is only one logical reason and it’s not rocket science to know why. Any tackle shop will always renew his advertising contract in magazines or websites if he is getting good business from it. If it works you continue to advertise...If the response tails off you stop wasting your money.

This is why the FM pages are devoid of regular coarse fishing dealers and instead are now awash with game and fly fishing retailers. Why fly fishing? Can anyone give me one good reason why a fly fishing retailer would advertise on FM? The answer has to be as plain as the nose on your face; these ads are freebies and come part of the package to advertisers from the hugely successful sister site Fly Fishing Forums.

Here’s the deal to fly shops and manufactures, advertise on FFF and get one free on FM. Why the hell would a fly shop want to advertise on what is a predominantly coarse fishing site with only a handful of fly fishing post?.... Answer because it’s free!

So all the old coarse angling advertisers on FM have torn their schedules up and gone on to pastures new and found other sites with enough traffic that gives them business.

Only the other day I logged on to Fly Fishing Forums which I occasionally contribute to. I warn you now, these figures are frightening. On the New Post section there were seven pages of threads containing twenty five threads to each page. This was late afternoon with still more arriving. They were all marked TODAY. So within a 24 hour period there were over 175 active threads on various fly fishing topics.

Even more impressive a number of threads contained 5 and 6 pages of post 25 to the page. It must have been over a thousand posts, not views! That day may have been exceptional but if you check up on a daily basis you will always find 4, 5, EVEN 6 TIMES more threads and posters on the Fly Fishing Forum site than on Fishing Magic.

All in all a staggering audience figure with a colossal number of members participating. More amazing, this was not peak traffic time and later in the evening the rush hour would start with even more post and threads World cup or no World cup.

When you consider that a very large number participate in posting on FFF including many well known names and experts there must also be a huge number of lurkers. This is why fly fishing companies advertise on that site because of its huge audience it works for them, members, posters and lurkers all buy tackle.

I feel very sorry for Graham, being a fishing pal of his I know that the current situation on FM must hurt him deeply and if I were in his shoes I would feel b-lo-o-d-y angry. His original idea of a small band of anglers chatting on line about what we love most, the joy, the frustrations, the highs and lows were all discussed on his fledgling site. As more anglers acquired computers the audience grew and Grahams own little site became FM one of the most successful angling forums in recent years.

Sadly that is no longer true and today’s FM is a mere a shadow of its former self with a handful of posters the same old faces.

So before we try to see what’s gone wrong its worth examining the reasons for the old FMs success. It was a very friendly site, if you were a newcomer you could read and enjoy the banter, it had a welcoming warm feel to it, so much so that that a great many newcomers and lurkers immediately signed up and joined in with the fun. Everyone felt equal and if anyone did step out of line a quiet warning was all that was needed.

Grahams influence had a great deal to do with its success; he joined in with the banter as well as the serious issues. Sure he made the occasional gaff like we all do but he was the first one to put his hands up and say “Sorry chaps this time I got it wrong”. He only wore one hat, as an Editor, Administrator and a member, the hat was called Graham and he was one of the boys. By operating in this manner he quite rightly earned himself an enormous amount of respect from the membership which continued to grow.

Today things are totally different. That being the case I believe Rufus and Bob raised some very valid points on the lurker thread. Statistics and numbers can be massaged and manipulated as politicians often do. They are no longer black and white. If the viewing figures and membership figures are true then why did all the advertisers leave?

If we really do have thousands of lurkers why did they not buy from the online shops who used to advertise?

Why has Fly Fishing Forums got such a huge audience and posters and not FM when there are far more coarse fisherman in the UK than fly anglers? Unless the EA has got the figures wrong.

Why do we have two Editors but one prefers to be called Administrator when FFF has none. Even the owner of FFF simply calls himself Administrator.

I speak to many members of this site; they are friends and confide in me. Some say they cannot be bothered to post anymore because the sites atmosphere has changed. “The bickering that used to be banter”. “The high handed attitude of some that should know better and will not hold their hands up when they have been proved wrong”, “it’s no fun anymore”, “ even more worrying “I have found better sites”. These are comments from valued members and regular posters who have drifted away and no longer post.

I firmly believe that major changes have to be made, because very soon FM will become a white elephant to the owner who already has an extremely successful site. He bought the site as an investment and if they don’t produce...well you know the rest.

When I started to contribute to FM there were pages and pages of Latest Post. When you clicked on the index there could have been 3 4 or 5 pages of threads all marked TODAY, not yesterday. When you made a post on any thread it went to the top of the page but very quickly worked its way down and often within the hour find its way on to page 2 and so on. This was because it was a very busy site with a vibrant membership many of them making new post throughout the day or evening.

Now if you are lucky you will be hard pushed to find two pages. Chat with 60,000+ it says, I don’t think so. At this time of writing there are nineteen threads on FM and 105 on FFF.

It gives me no pleasure to post this thread but FM desperately needs new lifeblood to compensate for all those who have faded away. They will return again but only if the new FM can adopt the old warm welcoming style of the old. Graham has proved to be irreplaceable but left behind a wonderful legacy for all of us. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but foresight is even better.

Lets try and get it back where it belongs, and for some change your attitude before its too late.

As a now casual participant, and never really given much thought to why I don't come here so often,(apart from plugging stuff, fish-ins and Cakey/Rich's auction)
A lot of what the Collector states sounds about right.

I don't mean numbers, or comparisoms elsewhere, just content.
Shame, but I do think that this my site which I once shared, is no longer the same.
It may be age, but I don't find speaking my mind easy on here anymore.

Its changed...of that there is no doubt. I dont find it any more or less friendly than it was but Fred is spot on when he says the content [substance ?] has diminished. We've lost a lot of good posters * for some reason less and less of it seems to be fishing related.

I'm as guilty as the next person in that respect but I long ago recognised how little my meagre skills/experiences could add to the communal knowledge. I'm not and never have been a deep thinker when it comes to my fishing. I do certain things well but most;ly I listen and learn...and I have learned a lot here.Its my major source of new ideas and I'd hate to lose it.

I will try to contribute more but frankly I stand in complete awe of some of the guys on here.

BC, a fine post mate.

Blimey, what is the answer?

Personally I only use FM, but I use it far less than I used to. I come home, switch the pc on and log into FM. I flit around and get on with my day to day business, looking into FM now and then when the pc is turned on. I work double shift, one week it's 6-2 the next it's 2-10, so that might explain why I make late night posts on 2-10.

I agree that loads of members have disappeared, but why? Their personal lives? Things change, people move house and jobs and partners. But new members are coming through. I wish they would stop lurking though.

With regard to your advertising slant, I'm skint! I don't know how many others are in the same possition as me, but I am making do with what I've got. I can't afford to splash out on new gear. They say we are out of the recession, yeah right! This is bound to have a knock on effect to anglers like me.

Very interesting post BC, I wish it could be how it used to be...

The Boss will always have my complete respect, nothing will take that away from me!

Fred, you've moved on mate. Understandably, you can't be the same old Fred, cos someone will try to knock you down....quite sad really cos I feel like I know the old Fred, but I don't want to get involved in the bickering.

Head above parapet and all that.
It don't bother me Steve, I am what I am and you've met me.
I don't want the bickering either, just too many axes to grind out there, and I won't let them get away with it.
I just won't encourage it by posting what is just my opinion, and spoiling it for everybody else when the mob move in.

I think quite a few old members left because of the setup of the now fishingmagic. Its the layout. Took some getting use to but some people just don't like change. There is a hell of a lot of banter missing, always was a good laugh. Shame some took it too far, hence the moderators who are doing a good job. As regards to advertising, its a big expense.
I think that the casual fisherman will cut back on the sport making do with what they aready have. If you enjoy what you are doing, then you stick with it.
I still think it is a friendly site and some good articles still being put up.
We should be praising the positives. If people/lurkers see how many negative post moans and groans, then will definately shy away.

The Internut, eh?

I embraced it in 2001 when I got a decent computer and dial-up, wanting to spread the enthusiasm, knowledge and love around.

Then...

I simply hadn't reckoned on all the nutjobs and the on-'is-case stalkers.

Still goes on.

Last night on FFF, some first poster supposedly coming out of the States posting just possibly barking-mad stuff in a thread (to which I had not contributed - can't, wouldn't wish to) about a book I had an initiating and very big hand in.

Then, today, a couple of emails to an address I don't hand out, ostensibly from people I knew and fished with 17 years ago and more than half a world away, both fake...

I still like the immediacy and democracy and sharing side of the WWW, but it don't half attract former saloon-bar pronouncers and bores, plus anyone with an axe to grind or a possibly serious psychiatric problem.

Pity.

The Bone Collector said:

This is a quote by Geoff from Bobs lurker thread.


geoffmaynard; There's a common misconception that forums are the most popular pages on websites. The stats very plainly say otherwise - it was the same on the other websites I've edited too. This is why, if someone has something to say, it is far better to say it to thousands of people via an article we can put on the front page rather than a post to a few hundred who read the forums.

If that really is true Geoff and thousands (?) are viewing then why have all the coarse fishing tackle shops and mail order companies who used to advertise on FM disappeared?...........

Click to expand...

"Lets try and get it back where it belongs, and for some change your attitude before its too late."

---------- Post added at 23:16 ---------- Previous post was at 23:13 ----------

It's all true what I wrote there BC. Nobody is making anything up. If you look around you'll notice that all advertising revenues have dried up across the board and in every country in the world. That's all it is. Nothing suspicious.

---------- Post added at 23:26 ---------- Previous post was at 23:16 ----------

But who, specifically are you asking to change attitude? If it's me, I'm sorry if I've upset you - it was unintentional whatever it was - but I won't be changing anything

I happen to think we have a great website here. Great guys, with lots of experience, lots of banter on the forums, excellent articles... of course the recession has hit hard but it's hit FM no harder than any of the other coarse websites. Membership continues to grow and the only thing the guvn'r complains about is a lack of advertisers - same as everyone else in this business. But that's not the sites fault. It happens every time there is a recession - the first cuts to be made are the advertising costs.

---------- Post added at 23:49 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

As for my title 'Administrator'. You really are on the conspiracy theorist theme tonight mate. There's nothing unusual here. I was originally labelled the 'carp editor' by Graham but I thought the title wrong for someone so out of touch with carp fishing, so I changed it to what I thought was an innocuous title. It was either that or 'co-editor'. That's all. Simples!

The FFF has the advantage of being centred on a world wide branch of our sport. There's a heavy bias towards Borders/Scottish contributors and plenty of "holier than thou" members who decry anything other than their "precious wee troot". Despite that, it's a reasonably friendly forum and has an abundance of great information. It has its fair share of residents and, in my opinion, has a very similar feel about it to FM, except on a larger scale. A large chunk of the numbers game is postings on Members Classifieds and Trade Classifieds something FM does not have in any size at all.

Their main web page is very international in its content and contributors. "Ours" is coarse related and therefore incredibly "local".

The Website and particularly the Forum is what its contributors make of it!

Ah, Neil, but just let anyone talk "International", if it happens to cut across the interests of some upmarket lodges and sporting agents, then clock the response. I did once (talk international), for, in some territories, I happened to have been there long before the lot of them...

Shock! Horror! The man's mad!

Paul Boote said:

Ah, Neil, but just let anyone talk "International", if it happens to cut across the interests of some upmarket lodges and sporting agents, then clock the response. I did once (talk international), for, in some territories, I happened to have been there long before the lot of them...

Shock! Horror! The man's mad!

Click to expand...

Agreed! A while ago I spent plenty of time working on the west coast of the USA, fished and travelled a bit with some very knowledgable locals. When expressing opinions based on personal experience, I was "surrounded" by apparently far superior beings!

As has been mentioned before, a thick skin is often a necessary requirement when indulging in web talk.

Pity, though, for I rather took onboard and deeply to heart something that I read as a very small, fishing-mad child in the early to mid 1960s, written by Bernard Venables in "Creel" magazine - why he felt it important - vital, even - to fish for fish, and not against men...

Well things have changed without doubt, and many of the old members that have moved on are missed.

The banter isn't what it was, but that could be down to the loss of some members also, but you can still have a laugh.

Fred points to a problem, if he, and some others have a say, they get jumped on, Fred is right not to let them get away with it, I have spoken to Fred a number of times, and saw him last year at Blenhiem for the first time. Fred is honest, and says it as it is, just seems some can't handle it.

There are times when I look in and don't post, much of the content has been done to death, time and time again.

FM is the only site I use, other than AOl for my e/mails, I can't be bothered with google and the like, set up a facebbook, only because a few old friends where trying to contact me. My wife posts on that more than me, I find it boring.

I will stick with FM, it's my internet home, with great anglers and people, lets keep it that way.

It's all true what I wrote there BC. Nobody is making anything up. If you look around you'll notice that all advertising revenues have dried up across the board and in every country in the world. That's all it is. Nothing suspicious.

It does not seem to have affected the Fly Fishing Forums Geoff; in fact they have gone from strength to strength with increased revenue and membership resulting with a massive amount of member participation.

The total disappearance of all the retailers who used to advertise coarse fishing tackle on FM means only one thing, insufficient response. Many of the old advertisers are still spending money but now you will find them actively selling their wares on other sites.

I deal with a number of the old FM advertisers in my line of work and they tell me that certain popular sites produce a far greater number of orders than others for obvious reasons. The greater the audience the greater the response which is the reason why the retailers on FFF and other sites are doing so well.

Anglers are still spending money on tackle even during a recession, they may cut their cloth to suit and opt for the budget range but they still spend as the shops on the FFF prove. Newcomers take up the sport every year, they need to buy tackle and do so, recession or no recession.

What seems bizarre is why is the FFF doing so well. What many see as a minority sport when compared to the total number of coarse anglers in the UK why the huge difference in threads and post? How do you explain the willingness of anglers to post on one site and not the other when the overwhelming vast majority of UK anglers are coarse fishermen?

Maybe the FFF is more welcoming. Graham always said it’s the members who make the forum Geoff and by that he was referring to the posters not the silent majority. No posters, no threads, no banter, no fun and you have a sterile site without a soul.


But who, specifically are you asking to change attitude? If it's me, I'm sorry if I've upset you - it was unintentional whatever it was - but I won't be changing anything

You don't need to change Geoff I have no axe to grind with you whatsoever, I am not going to get into a public slanging match lets just say I hope the message got through to the right quarter.

I happen to think we have a great website here. Great guys, with lots of experience, lots of banter on the forums, excellent articles... of course the recession has hit hard but it's hit FM no harder than any of the other coarse websites. Membership continues to grow and the only thing the guvn'r complains about is a lack of advertisers - same as everyone else in this business. But that's not the sites fault. It happens every time there is a recession - the first cuts to be made are the advertising costs.[/QUOTE]

Like I said look at the FFF and ask yourself why because its certainly not affected them.

I have been a fan of this site for a long time and nothing would please me more to see it back in its rightful position which is the reason I put my original post up.

Re titles Geoff I do not suffer with conspiricy theorys I just find it rather odd that we have two editors (plural) with two different titles, so why not make life simple for everyone and call yourselves both the correct title of Co Editor...... after all its only a name innit.

Yes I wholehearted agree with BC, Graham personified the site, as a casual poster these days it doesnt seem the same, if its not broke dont fix it comes to mind.

I had a look at the trading sites... far too expensive, plus high delivery charges, plus the frequently repeated forum advice - sensible in my view - to stick with our local tackle shop.

Not a dig at Geoff M, as presumably he was asked to do it - but I remember the talk of a "new editor to breath life into the carp section" with a lot of nudge nudge wink wink as if it was going to be someone really well known...... and then it's someone who, whilst he is reasonably well known from earlier exploits, admits to being out of touch with modern carping? Hardly likely to pull people from other forums is it!

As shown by a recent "happening", FM's articles are well thought of and people find them useful, they just aren't marketed particularly well as people can't find them. When plenty of articles were being submitted (not Fly based re-postings) the forum had a lot more activity, questions and arguments about them - it's not suprising that the forums are quieter now.

May i kindly interject with what i see to often on FM.

As many of you know i was a regular poster on all sorts of Threads on the FM forum, i visited FM because i was bored and it gave me something to do at the time.
I did however find that many of my postings were not always warmly received due to them not always adding value to the original Thread posting.

I looked at it as being merely banter and trying to force myself in to an already established group of Forum Friends and contributors, i sat back 1 day and realised that to some i was clearly distracting from there serious posted question.

For these reasons, i decided that i would only post if i felt i could answer their question in a way that would help the poster or would add to what had already been posted.

If i saw a heading to a Post that i felt that i either didn't know anything about or had already been answered substantially then i wouldn't bother posting.

Then you get those who objected to me using the internet to explain an Answer to someones question, just because you don't actually have the experiance (at least i was trying to help).

There was also those who objected to me answering first or before them blah blah blah blah.

Then there is in my opinion this rather annoying, what i refer to as "Negative Posting" please don't misinterpret this, what i mean is more and more i see more replies and posts when the topic is of what i call a Negative Nature, for example.
Mention Otters, or Cormerants, or Canoeists, or PETA, Barbed or Barbless, Angling Trust YES or NO, Environment Agency etc etc etc and wow look at all the replies that they get, debates go on for pages and pages.

Now, come on to FM and post a thread that says which hook would you recommend for Chub fishing on the River blah blah, and you will get some replies but 1 well crafted answer is usually enough for people to sit back and say, yep that's how to do it, and the Thread ends, unless someone hijacks it and turns it a little then it may continue briefly.

Now, the Negative Threads get more of a massed response because people feel strongly passionate about these subjects but on the majority you get the YES or NO debatisits bantering and arguing with each other that helps to carry the posts along.

The specific question targeted at a certain way to fish will get specific answers, yes they may vary as to which make of rod or which make or size of hook but on the whole they are specific to the question asked so there for can be answered quicker and stop quicker also.

Some times MORE is not better and that LESS with Thought and Quality is what counts.

As i am not a very experianced Fisherman i like to learn and to learn you need to ask questions and listen and then ask again. Perhaps there are a lot of people like myself on FM who like to listen and learn rather that talk and teach.

Anyway, that's why i don't post on FM as much as i used to, i still visit it regularly looking through the Forum Posts i just don't interact very much.

I agree with The Bone Collector's post(s) and can see exactly where Frothey is coming from.

To get FM thriving again it needs plenty of new articles that are cutting edge and topical. It's all very well having nostalgic cane and 'pin stuff but that's not what most anglers actually want to read about. The beauty of internet is that you can accommodate the nostalgic stuff but to succeed you need the new stuff. Graham was excellent at encouraging the best internet writing and discerning enough to know what NOT to publish. What Jeff and Geoff have as a serious challenge is finding and encouraging those writers.

Cutting edge could be anything from why and how to use doubled up pole elastic, the latest carp rigs, new barbel baits, fishing for catfish in the UK, how barbel fishing can survive/thrive in the future, finding perch....

Also there is still plenty to do in resurrecting corrupted old articles on FM; I noticed during the thread about reel fittings that my old article on the same could be found but only the first page came up. I know from comments made to me that plenty of people found my articles useful and that they would work through my archive, and I'm sure that applied to the other regular writers. This is probably a bit like painting the Forth Road Bridge and may never be completed but please don't abandon the job!

Must go; work to do on an article...

I think this site has a long way to go before it goes .

I have seen a web site that was the best in it's field (airsoft) go down hill over around two years because it got to the point that even regular posters were afraid to post without getting stomped on by the administrators or there little helpers ,the rules went up the posts went down the and all the regulars moved sites drip by drip then joked about the fact they could never ask certain things or post things on the other other site without warnings and posts being canceled.I think the people who ran it had just had enough and instead of getting out they let it go stagnant and treated it like a chore.

This site is nothing like that!

Though I am relatively new to this site i see it as an amazing resource and tell all anglers i get talking to about it , but to my knowledge I don't think any of them have ever said they have been on it.

Though I have met a few who have been on barbel fishing world.

I have tried the main competitors site connected to a newspaper and found it hard to navigate and there are far to many adverts.