Fixed leads, everyone uses them !

We get loads of e-mails concerning resistance and particularly what running rigs actully work, so it's time to state the obvious.
Running lead set-ups don't exist !
We have done loads of research on the subject including underwater filming and if you are using line above 4lb and fishing more than 20ft out you have what is effectively a fixed ledger, at least on the initial take. Try putting your thumb over the end of a Starpoint or any other decent hook at say 50ft range and then move off with it, in any direction, ....... everytime you'll get the hook firmly in your flesh. The submerged line resistance alone will effectively set the hook, if it doesn't then you would have missed anyway. With so many tackle tarts using colour coded tree trunks and tow rope the resistance is even greater. On most occasions, especially at range, the line could never get through the ledger on the initial take anyway as the lead, in-line or otherwise, is invariably in the wrong direction, half buried in the silt or laying against gravel. There are, on occasions, many advantages to using a 'non-fixed' ledger but they have nothing to do with the consequences of the original take. However careful you are to lift the ledger clear of the bottom after casting only one in a hundred will actually be in a position to allow the line to move through unimpeded and even then either tight line or slack (because of the arc in the water) will act as a brake on the terminal rig.
Many Carp take off like rockets without warning because they've been stabbed in the gob unexpectedly and leg it ! If you fail to connect then either the hook is pulled out on the strike or it had just pricked the fish.
There is a kind of 'running rig' that does seem to work, to a degree, but it's as complicated as hell, very difficult to cast and invariable gets tangled.
So, I guess all the arguments will start but if you use any sort of ledger, however its set, you are presenting the fish with a fixed rig on the take !

thats what most of us have been saying for ages. you forgot about weed/bars/twigs all creating resistance, and the fact the line has to be dead slack to start with.......

Hi frothy,
Glad that someone else sees sense. You would be amazed at the arguments we've had and you're right, throw in the weed and stuff and any chance the Carp had of wandering off with the bait totally unaware of any attachment is nil!

not a lot to add to that.



I use running leads, but not for the supposed 'resistence free' reasoning, with me it's so that the rig has no chance of bouncing out, and to my mind it's reasonably safer.



I think if you search back through the forum on here, then you'll see most of us agreeing with you.

I see you've restyled your site then Steve.
Same words and pictures, just new colours.

I guess it might be an idea to refer anyone contacting us on the subject to refer to this forum. Sometimes it seems that whatever you say some 'experts' don't take any notice. We even sent some underwater footage to a guy in South Africa who just wouldn't let it go and still he kept arguing !!!
As a standard rule, all our research and angling teams use running leads as we too think its safer. There are often occasions when the fish is off in one direction and the line is pointing in another when the ledger has got caught somewhere especially as we often tagret margins, even in winter, albeit at long range. At least if its not fixed it gives you a chance of getting it out.

Hi Rik,

We do have lots of new stuff but it always seems to be in the pipeline with no time to actually publish it! Some stuff is live though and I've just employed a guy to update the whole content, if he stays sober for long enough ............, especially the trip reports in the States, Balkans etc so with luck there will be a lot more fresh content soon. We are a business though and unfortunately the site is generally aimed at new clients rather than forums which are good fun, especially as we get to annoy people, but don't actually earn us any money.

"We even sent some underwater footage to a guy in South Africa who just wouldn't let it go and still he kept arguing !!!"

You sure he was in South Africa grumpy? He didn't have an SA accent and go by the name of Ron ??

Umm ........ maybe Stuart.
Is this guy Ron a bit limp wristed ?
He kept using the term 'Sweetie'
( If Ron is over 6ft and 200lbs .... sorry Ron)

Hi Grumpy!....

I agree as well, but surely, thats what makes the running rig so good?.. the fact that it can have a similar hooking efficiency to a fixed lead, but does, eventually, allow the line to run through it?...


Also of course, dosn't a "running lead" give better drop back indication, as, i presume, even though the lead will move on the take with the line, at some point it will hit bottom and allow SOME free movement of line through it?

BTW.... wheres the website?..

Hi Manick,
I reckon you're right but, as yet we've never managed to actually follow a carp after the take to see what happens. One of my guys, more enthusiastic than most, always use to cast right onto the far bank on one of our holding lakes, then walk all the way round, remove the ledger, rig the bait and drop it in by hand. the cast was around 85yds. So he was effectively freelining at long range. Lot of effort, (long walk) but it did usually get better results than leaving the ledger on. Quite why I don't know as we have watched fish take baits on hundreds of occasions and if the terminal rig is presented well enough they take with such confidence that it makes no difference what is attached.... by the time they find out they are already hooked.

Oh forgot ......... the website is supafish.com .........

I agree with the sentiments of this thread, and although there will always be resistance; I believe there are still strong reasons as to why and where to use a running rig. These reasons could be down to finicky feeding fish that will tug away and play with a bait which in the right circumstances could allow the rig to run far more freely (quite rare possibly) I appreciate your point about tow rope etc but would like to add that I use a quite a big bore swivel over tubing so invariably (following your findings etc) could work even further against me. But I have found that if using line/braid instead of tubing, the whole rig is in far more danger of getting stuck through the eye due to too much flexibility in the line/thread and the amount of angles this can end up in before the take is away. I much prefer to use tubing which in the main is a far thicker diameter but remains relatively stiff. This may give off a friction feel to the fish but at least I know if a more aggressive carp is gonna snatch my bait then it would be too late and well hooked before it knows it.

Your findings give good thought to a running rig and the mechanics surrounding ?no such thing? however (and more importantly for our readers wishing to try such a method) don?t discount the concept totally as this has seen many a good fish on the bank as a result of this method. I think the secret behind any good carp angler is to have a good thinking brain that continuously tries to ascertain what exactly happens underneath the surface at the business end. If in principle, and above the surface, we believe the running rig should give us the best possible results based on a line can run through the ring smoothly without any resistance outside of water, then we need to be thinking harder and taking into consideration elements such as weed and gravel bars (Frothey) silt and undertow/pressures (Grumpy).

Great Thread by the way Grumpy!

This is why I signed up for FM,good thread!

I will say that I feel there is a far lesser amount of resistance in a free running rig, I'm not suggesting it's totally free running, but I don't believe there's the same degree of resistance compared to a fixed lead set up.

If I fish identical rigs and distances when catting, one with a running lead and one semi-fixed, then the running rig will see the cats peeling line off, whereas the semi-fixed will see a short run that is quickly dropped.

Distance seems to be immaterial.
Maybe, with cats, the resistance on the initial take that you suggest Steve, doesn't unduly worry them as the first time they grab the bait does tend to be more aggressive than a carp.

Do your findings suggest how far after the initial take that the relatively resistance free part of the running rig returns?

Great thread i enjoy these as they make me think and teach me something new. I have put a few thoughts of my own down below.

I tend to use a free running set-up on the rivers because it will allow me to give a little line if the Chub are being a bit shy. But this is fishing at short range.

I would think the resistace would drop as the bow diappeared then it would depend on how the baitrunners were set.

I think that diffrent species will accept diffrent levels of resistance due to the way they feed the predators will always feel a little resistance from the fish trying to escape or maybe the odd strand of weed picked up at the same time. Where as the species that tend to feed of food in suspension are not use to any resistance from there food.

This is interesting. Rik showed me his methods of a running rig the other week (and I have now bought the components, Rik) and will give them a go.

Only think I will say is that every take on semi-fixed rigs has lead to screaming runs. That indicates to me that the fish is going in the opposite direction to the rod and to the weight, which is typical of fish, get away from the resistance / danger.

Now you've thrown the cat amongst the pigeons and I'm wondering will I now start to get drop backs? Ie: a fish takes, short run followed by drop back indicating change of course, fish coming towards me. If so, I will have to change my alarms as my present ones don't indicate drop backs.

It's an expensive game this fishing.

I took on board the point surrounding 'no lead at all' and I'd like to experiment on a runs water so I may ascertain the benefits and my findings. My initial thoughts to get around this would be to place a few pebbles or a stone in a PVA bag along with the bait etc to get a fair chuck out into the water. I'll have to rack my brains prior to testing this and spend some time thinking about the implications of no lead to pull against (if semi fixed) or no pulley system to pull against if a running rig and how this may relay back to the indication side of things at the rod end.

well it blows away all those deep hooked fish that you get when freelining, as that can't happen according to his research.....

Indicator set up wouldn't matter, as you'd get the same run as if it were semi fixed.




Apparently.....

I don't believe that mate, if there is no lead or anything other than the bait in the carps mouth how could you expect to get the same run or indication?

Lets look back to some earlier conversations/facts in that even with a fixed lead (up to 3-4 ounces) the fish can move your bait and lead upto 10 yards without giving any indication at the rod end. If this is the case, then how could a rig set-up with no lead give the same indication as a semi-fixed rig?