pH, any views ?

Any of you guys been monitoring water pH/bait correlations ?
Our annual data analysis is becoming interesting as the computer is throwing up a few anomalies that we had suspected for some time . It would appear that there is a distinct band in which baits are either effective or not depending on the difference between the ambient lake pH, at a given time, and the baits themselves. The optimum is continually being shown on our graphs as +.2 or -.3.
With the water itself continually changing whilst baits themselves stay pretty much the same during the course of a session it may explain why some baits appear to be effective one minute and then pretty much useless the next. Blanks could be occurring at times because the baits being used fall outside the optimum criteria.

does the ph of the lake vary according to areas?
how much does a lakes ph change and over what period of time?
does the ph of the bait alter as it absorbs lake water with a different ph?


questions, questions, questions......

pH isn't particularly regional, apart from the obvious areas that have geological anomalies, peat etc. Every lake is different and each may have varying levels over a matter of hours. It entirely depends on a whole range of factors ........ many things can affect the pH level. As to how much the pH can change and over what period, how longs a piece of string ? It can change rapidly or not at all during the day although there is always a difference between night time and daylight, the ambient pH is dependent entirely on its own environment as well as the interactive response to the environment surrounding one. There's little point in going into detail about 'why' the pH changes, whats relevant is how to respond.
As for the bait question, the inward bleaching effect from lake to bait is usually marginal and even then the effect takes many hours depending on the intensity and density of the bait. A typical shelf life boilie is more liable to resist bleaching than a home made bait and particles hardly vary at all from wnatever their natural pH is.

understanding why and how it changes and what areas would be most altered would allow us to change baits accordingly and be slightly pre-emptive as opposed to waiting for the ph to change and then changing bait when it's too late.

would it not be better to try and achieve a bait with a neutral ph and thus be sitting astride the acid/alkaline fence.


Does the ph level have any bearing on the feeding of the carp?
e.g. do they feed harder/better/more vigourously when the ph is x as opposed to y


what is the way to respond?
is it better to fish with baits that mimic the water ph or ones that are opposite?


more bloody questions...

good article BTW, nice little lake, lots of unique challenges...

Sorry for the delay ....... bloody electricians are rewiring the place and its absolute chaos !!! I agree that understanding how the pH changes would help but it really is complex and I didn't want to bore everybody, besides which even if you have an honours degree it's still easier to respond to the change rather than pre-empt it. The main point is that the bait needs to be above the lake pH by .2 or below by .3 for it to work, if its the same as the lake the Carp do not seem to respond, as if they can't 'see' it. I have a feeling that this is due to the sensory make up of the Carp. Their eyes just are not that good ( they get spooked by vibration rather than vision when you try to sneak up on them) they are the cows of the lake in that they graze, they do not need to have the same senses as say a Pike as I'm sure you already know and understand. For the most part you can't see anything anyway below a few feet on most lakes at least not with the retinas and neural connections that a Carp has. They also don't have taste buds exactly, at least not in the general meaning of the word .( I feel another thread coming on! ) so they obviously rely on a number of other senses to find their food. We have an incling that the Carp can differentiate between food and non food items by the pH value, at least partially. A stone on the bottom for instance is not taken as food. Many Goldfish die incidentally by getting gravel stuck in their throat wheras Carp have never turned up at our autopsy unit with the same complaint. Gravel etc would naturally have the same pH as its surroundings whereas food items, being predominately organic or alive in the case of bloodworms etc have their own pH. It seems that the Carp can find and itentify food items if they are within the ranges above. They do have other means of course but the pH definately seems to have a trigger of some sort. Sometimes, if the pH matches the food being offered, they definately go off the feed as if they are totally unaware of its presence. As the lake pH changes they come on the feed as if the sustanance they seek is suddenly 'visable' from a sensory point of view. I do not pretend we understand it hence the thread, but pH is definately a factor. Having just secured some American research funding we hope to equip and employ another two research teams soon so perhaps we can concentrate more on the whole subject. Thanks for the comments on the article ....... it gets better but we needed to leave the States first!!!!!

BTW, ask as many questions as you want. I just wish we had all the answers.......
Another 'btw', we have gone through 46,000+ emails and can't find your one.

Another interesting thread from grumpy!
well done that man!

it was over 2 years ago, but never mind, you obviously have all the researches you need now.



my point about the ph in different parts of the lake and how it changes relates to how you would measure it and know when to alter your bait accordingly.

Is the ph in that silt pocket at 50 yds the same as at your feet?

get my drift?

Good point and, within as much as doesn't matter, the pH applies to the whole lake as the inherent thermal activity and movement creates an average mix. It might be at times that one area takes a little longer to respond but the time lapse is nearly always minutes rather than hours. Either way, the bulk of the water will soon have its effect on the rest so if you take a reading at your feet it will provide a good enough indicator. You can of course still use your favourite bait but it has to be adjusted as the need arises and there all sorts of ways of doing that without resorting to a chemistry set. When fishing recently at a research lake we noticed something that now seems to make sense but at the time was baffling. We mostly add an Alka Seltza tablet to any pva bags, swim feeders etc as, when they dissolve, the bubbles not only help to attract fish but also help to dissipate the free offerings, attractants etc as well making sure that the bag itself disintigrates quickly especially in cold weather. For some reason, on this occasion, the baits that had been set without using Alka Seltza began to completely out-fish those that had. Having looked at our computer results earlier today we measured the pH and sure enough, the Alka Seltza was having the effect of lowering the particular ph of the bait we were using. On this occasion it was too low.
As far as needing researchers is concerned, we ALWAYS need them as there is so much to learn, thats why I spend so much of the companies income employing then full time. the more we learn the more bloody complex ( and rewarding ) it becomes.

Hi Manick, wait till we get onto flavourings and colour ............

how are you measuring it.

Jason ........We use an electronic analyser as well as comparisons with a known denominator, base neutral liquids etc. We also, although up till now rarely, take samples at depth.

bluddi ell, you after government funding or something.
and here's me tinkering about with different flavours.
you are undoubtedly way beyond the point that any sane amature boily flinger like myself will ever consider getting to but i think i'll sit back and follow your discourse with rick in a state of interested bewilderment.

Guess it does sound a bit fanatical. Carp aren't even my favourite quarry as the research we do on Tench is even more complex.......... perhaps I should increase my medication.
You don't have to go to such lengths though, there are plenty of cheap pH kits about that would do from a non-research point of view and anything that helps put quality Carp on the bank must be worthwhile pursuing. We all spend enough time on the bank wondering why something isn't working as it is.

Sorry guys, have to go. the electricians are working through the night and our computers go down in a minute. I'd love to carry the subject on though so if anyone has any views they would be appreciated. if you can take the time to reply use our email address research@supafish.com and I'll pick them up tomorrow, cheers .......

hi grumpy i think that everything you say and do is rubbish

"perhaps I should increase my medication".

I'd get to the doctor now Grumpy!!! Interesting though.

a very well thought out, non-judgemental and open minded reply James.

james has never give one of them before so why would he start now.

i personally am very interested in what grumpy has to say, but he's way beyond me in what he's talking about, so i can't contribute just listen.