Rigs and their benefits

Stuart Dennis · Oct 4, 2004

I was talking to cakey and rik on another thread about the effectiveness of certain rigs over others. This will be quite a technical thread so please explain why you use a favoured rig over another.

The following is just a copy and paste from another thread:

Knotless knot ? revolutionising the way anglers present their bait over and above a grinner or blood knot attached to a hook with or without a hair, whether attached separately or not. The knotless knots benefits are to fold in one the strain on the knot is non-strangle giving a better line break and 2) the angle of which the line exits the eye back towards the rod. This by far increases a turning action when sucked into a carp?s mouth thus increasing the anti-eject motion. Limitations to this are can only really be recognised on a braid like/supple material.

Line Aligner ? revolutionising the knotless knot in that the line-lay coming back from the hook is exaggerated even further and rigidly set if constructed correctly thus increasing even more the anti-eject mechanism, giving turning a far greater speed when engaged. Limitations are its additional visibility (?), Additional bulk over and above a standard hook.

I think the above gives a fair and basic description don?t you think?

So what are you favouring at the moment and why do you feel its giving you an advantage over another?

GrahamM · Oct 4, 2004

As I've said in this morning's editorial the main advantage of the knotless knot and the hair rig is that it leaves the hook free to do its job - to hook fish almost unimpeded by bait.

This is very slightly off-topic but very relevant to any discussion on hooking and hair-rigging:

The hair rig started life as just that, a hair, or a very slim line that connected hook to bait, with the idea of presenting a bait that behaved naturally, ie, not directly connected to the stiffer hooklink.

Now, lines don't come much stiffer than fluorocarbon, and yet the hair rig is just as effective when fluoro is used to tie a knotless knot that incorporates the hair.

Stiff rigs indirectly follow on from this, and should also be considered in this discussion.

Stuart Dennis · Oct 4, 2004

Although both extremely effective, would you say that a braided knotless knot(supple) would give a better turning mechanism than perhaps a flouro knotless knot (stiffer than braid? or would you say that it's the other way around?

GrahamM · Oct 4, 2004

I don't think it makes any difference as far as the actual hair is concerned. The advantage of a stiff hair is that it is less inclined to lose position and wrap over the shank or bend of the hook, which can be more of a problem with long hairs. I know this can be prevented to some extent with the use of dissolvable foam, but one waft from a fish's tail after the foam has dissolved can result in the wrap-around.

Big Rik · Oct 4, 2004

for just turning, then a supple hooklength has a better ability to turn than a stiff one.
That's simple mechanics.
But a supple hooklength will need tubing to accentuate the line aligner/bent tube from the eye, but has the disadvantage of collapsing because of it's inherent suppleness.
Stiff rigs don't specifically need tubing to generate the angle from the eye and don't collapse when blown out, but obviously don't turn as easily as a supple link.

The hair is just as important Graham for a carp that sucks and blows.
Because the hair carries the bait, then it's construction and position will have an effect on the behaviour of the hook.
A hair that doesn't collapse means that it has more of a chance of taking the hook with it.
A hair that bends, or a sliding D that allows the bait to travel independently, means it has less bearing on the way that the hook moves.

Stuart Dennis · Oct 4, 2004

If we are taking into consideration the difference as far as the actual hair is concerned then surely we must also discuss the length of a hair in certain situations. For instance on bottom baits would you use different size hairs and for what purposes? For me the more aggressively and confidently the carp are feeding the shorter the hair and obviously the other way round. But with my pop-ups I use the same size hair all the time whether confident or not based on the positioning of the claw poised ready to take hold or the fact that (in theory) this could be the first bait that gets sucked into the mouth.

With regard to dissolvable foam to stop the boilie and the hair tangling, then yes I can see the benefits of using the foam, of which I do, but mainly to guard the hook as opposed to stop the tangling. To stop the tangling on the position of the hook when it settles or is wafted by fish, then I use a tiny piece of silicone on the hook to hold the hair in place. This also acts slightly as a blow back mechanism.

Big Rik · Oct 4, 2004

do you use the same size hair no matter what size and shape of hook you use?

Stuart Dennis · Oct 4, 2004

No, as stated above, this will change due to fish activity or mood. I also change this around depending on what bait I intend to use. With regard to all my pop-up hairs being the same, I mean the distance the bait is away from the hook. i.e. I could be using a double bait.

Gary Knowles 2 · Oct 4, 2004

I assume where Graham is coming from is his results when using a hair for barbel.

Graham is right here in that it makes no difference on the material in as far as the hair is concerned. This is because barbel are probably the unluckiest fish alive in that they have been born with an anti-eject mouth. As long as the hook point is not obstructed they will hook themselves every time.

As for carp, even if you don't hook them first time they are so greedy they just keep coming back for the bait until they do hook themselves......don't they ?

Ron Troversial Clay · Oct 4, 2004

I have been using the hair rig since about 1982. In the early days I used a small length of fine line to attach the hair to the hook. The hair was usually quite long and as Graham says it often resulted in the bait wrapping itself around the hook.

These days I use the same rig as in the picture. Gary is quite right, barbel hook themselves neatly in the corner of the mouth using this rig and are easy to unhook.

It's very effective and VERY fish friendly.

Frothey · Oct 4, 2004

like you stu, i use silicone to fix the hair in position and as a blowback, but there is a disadvantage that if the fish manages to get rid of the hook without you getting a strikeable indication, will the rig still be as efficient because of the silicone moving?
thats an advantage of using a ring with a stop, the next time a fish comes along and sucks the bait in rig is "reset". its also means you can change hair length without changing the whole rig. but then there is the concern of how the rigs sitting....

what do you find gives better anti-eject (not initial pricking), long or short hair?

GrahamM · Oct 4, 2004

Just got back in so just catching up with the thread.

Rik said, "A hair that doesn't collapse means that it has more of a chance of taking the hook with it."

Agreed, but isn't this one of those things that is more true in theory than it is in practice?

I reckon you would need an extemely long hair (too long to be effective) for this to be true in practice.

Big Rik · Oct 4, 2004

no Graham I disagree (crock of shit?), a shorter, inflexible hair, would move the hook away more than a longer hair would.
But we are talking about the way a carp feeds, which can at times be quite clever(?) unlike the gullible and very stupid barbel.

GrahamM · Oct 4, 2004

I know what you mean Rik, like those carp on the Korda Underwater Carping video, where the tench seem like rocket scientists compared to the 'intelligence ' of the carp.

James Gibbinson · Oct 4, 2004

I still subsribe to the original Middleton/Maddocks fine, supple hair principle i.e. enabling the hookbait to behave like a free offering.
The turning moment of a Line Aligner/Knotless Knot/spade-end knot is enhanced if the hair is fine and supple, and there is 5-10mm separation between the bait and the hook. The turning moment is further enhanced if there is supple braid adjaent to the hook (either a braid hooklink or a braid-end Combi-Link).
It makes me smile when anglers use a coarse "hair", then incorporate sliding rings, D-loops and other extraneous clutter to try to duplicate the effect that would have been achieved so much more simply and effectively had they stuck with a fine, supple hair in the first place!

Big Rik · Oct 4, 2004

I disagree Jim, presuming that you mean that the hair exits opposite the point.

If a carp blows a bait out, then the hair can pull the hook up and out, if a bait can travel down a loop to the eye, then this cannot happen.
(all theoretical obviously)

On the original point that a fine supple hait makes the hookbait appear like a free offering...

How?
This has always confused me.
It'll behave like a freebie for the travel of the hair (what did you say? 5-10mm) and then it'll act like an anchored bait when the weight of the hook, hooklink etc comes into play.
So with that in mind, then what advantage does it have?
If a carp is sucking in baits from anything more than 1/2 inch above the bottom, then the bait wont be behaving like anything else around it.

Explain please.

Stuart Dennis · Oct 4, 2004

?It makes me smile when anglers use a coarse "hair", then incorporate sliding rings, D-loops and other extraneous clutter to try to duplicate the effect that would have been achieved so much more simply and effectively had they stuck with a fine, supple hair in the first place!?

Jim, if the D-rig is designed to position the bait above the hook, taking into consideration the angle of which the carp is to feed, (ie) sucking upwards (ie) the fish will suck from above and obviously not below based on the lakebed limiting the fish from doing so, then surely even you can understand the benefits of a sliding ring where the blow-black of the hookbait will be controlled in that it will slide down the back of the hook as that?s where the route is dictated to by its positioning.

A normal hair will allow the bait to be blown back in any direction hence is not controlling the direction of which the bait will be spat out, again leaving room for error!

James Gibbinson · Oct 4, 2004

"If a carp blows the bait out". My objective, Rik, is to reduce the likelihood of this happening by keeping everything as subtle and discreet as possible. Carp are forgiving animals, but a lot of rigs are so coarse and crude that it's no surpise if carp try to blow out baits attached to them.
What you say about a fine hair only providing limited "freebie imitation" is correct, but surely anything which helps allay suspicion is worth incorporating. A longer hair would achieve "freebie imitation" far more effectively, but then we encounter other problems. I reckon 5-10mm separation (5mm with 12mm baits and smaller, 10mm with 15mm or larger baits) is a reasonable compromise.
The best we can hope for, I feel, is an incremental advantage here, another there...and so on. Hopefully those incremental advantages, although small in themselves, add up to increased overall efficiency.

Big Rik · Oct 4, 2004

so presumably you are having no free food with the vicinity of your hooklink, so that the carp will take the bait, close it's mouth and move off?
So are you saying that carp that suck and blow bait, you catch despite your rig, which isn't designed to catch these types of feeders?

Then surely an incremental change to a rig that will catch blowers, as well as mouth closers would be an evolution in itself?

Jim, you're limiting yourself to only catching 50% of the carp in the lake!!!!

James Gibbinson · Oct 4, 2004

Sorry Stuart, I couldn't follow your explanation of how a D-rig works. It's far too complicated for me. My carp fishing is far simpler than that - I just chuck it out, leave it a while, wind it back, and when I can't I've got one! (With apologies to the Late Oliver Kyte.)
Rik, 50% of the carp in the lakes I fish will do me nicely!
On a more serious note, I'm not trying to convert anyone to my point of view. I merely express opinions and leave people to accept those views or reject them.
Besides, the rightness or wrongness of views isn't established by consensus; carp (or whatever other species are being sought) are the only arbiters that count.

Rigs and their benefits

New member

Managing Editor

New member

Managing Editor

Big Rik

Guest

New member

Big Rik

Guest

New member

Gary Knowles 2

Guest

Ron Troversial Clay

Guest

Frothey

Guest

Managing Editor

Big Rik

Guest

Managing Editor

James Gibbinson

Guest

Big Rik

Guest

New member

James Gibbinson

Guest

Big Rik

Guest

James Gibbinson

Guest