First mirrors and leathers

Does anyone know when the first mirror/leather carp came into the UK? Donald Leney introduced them in the 30s (Redmire, for example, was stocked in 1934), having brought them in from Holland. Was he the first?

I doubt that any were brought in between 1914-18, for obvious reasons, so the first would have been pre-1914 or post-1918. My guess is that the first importations of mirrors/leathers were in the 1920s - although by whom I've no idea.

Anyone any information that might throw some light on the matter?

Jim, we are aware that the monks moved the fish around as a food source etc and I believe (was told) that was about the 12th Century. I was also led to believe that the common carp was modified into the mirror and eventually the leather so as when cooked the scales were not a problem for the table.

With the many years you have under your belt and of course knowledge in this arena, can you shed any more light on the subject?

As far as I know the mirror carp was selectively bred on the continent for food. 1896 seems to be a date that reverberates through carp history when the Mirror or King Carp seems to have been distributed throughout the world. Certainly this was the year that carp were introduced to South Africa as a food fish to give variety to the early gold and diamond miners. The fish that were introduced were certainly Mirror or King Carp from farms in Holland.

It seems that the mirror carp was bred in Poland or the Czech Republic.

"Leather Carp" is a bit of a misnomer as these fish breeders did not want to supply carp with no scales at all. Orthodox Jewish people are forbidden to eat fish without scales I think, therefore a few scales were important.

Is that right Peter Jacobs?

One of the last century's most famous carp catchers was Otto Overbeck who caught large numbers of fish up to 17 lbs from Croxby Pond in Lincolnshire during the turn of the century. None of the carp as far as I am aware were mirrors. All were fully scaled commons.

Good info Ron, can you shine any more light on the earlier centuries as where monks were supposed to be breeding for food source. Is the 12th century a myth?

Done a bit of interesting digging myself:

"Originating in a region of central Asia characterised by hot summers, cold winters and low rainfall, they inhabit wide, slow-flowing rivers and warm lakes. Carp were introduced to China, Japan and Italy in ancient times. From Rome they spread to Greece and southern Europe. They arrived in central Europe in the 12th century and England in the 14th century. The earliest recorded cultivation was in China in 475 BC.

The main strains of carp targeted by today's carp anglers are without doubt the 'king carp'. The king carp consist of the common, mirror and leather carp. The carp family is much larger than just these strains, and contains tench, crucian, koi, goldfish and so on. The carp found in this country arrived in central Europe in the 12th century and then moved to England in the 14th century. Monks cultivated carp in this country also during the 15th and 16th century. Ponds were dug and carp were fed to a good size for the table.

Hey Stuart I'm not that old?

I remember in one of the discussions and in several letters I exchanged with **** Walker that he believed that carp were introduced to England by the Romans. Certainly the Roman Empire at the time stretched to areas of the world where carp were well established. Remeber that the latter years of the Roman Empire saw the start of the spresd of Christianity.

And fast days became common.

I've seen comments to the effect that Romans brought carp to Britain, but thus far I've found no references that add weight to the supposition.

The first actual reference to carp in Britain was made by Dame Juliana Berners (there are doubts relating to her authorship - but that's another matter) in A Treatyse of Fysshynge with an Angle. She says, "The carp is a deinteous (translates as "dainty" - whether referring to pleasing appearance or eating quality, I'm not sure) fishe, but there be but few in England, and therefore I wryte least of him....". The "treatyse" was published in 1496.

If there "be but few", then presumably they hadn't been in England very long. Almost certainly they were brought across from the Continent by monks for their "stews" (fish holding/rearing ponds). These, of course, were common/wild carp.

Which takes me back to my original question about mirror/leather carp. I cannot find any references to their introduction prior to Donald Leney's endeavours.

Otto Overbeck's fish were commons, as were H.T. Sheringham's (Cheshunt), also the fish in Wadhurst. What about Albert Buckley's 26lb 1930 erstwhile record from Mapperley - was that a mirror or a common? I've read a contemporary account of the capture (culminating in it being gaffed!), but there's no mention of what variety of carp it might have been - which leads me to suppose it was probably a common.

The origin of mirrors/leathers in the UK is a fascinating subject, and a worthwhile research project for someone with the time and the inclination.

Albert Buckley's fish was a mirror Jim. I have a photo of the fish which was set up by Nottingham taxidermist Leonard Wilde.

Mapperley reservoir was constructed ca 1821, yet the carp were stocked in 1911 and 1930.

One can only assume that Buckleys's 26lb fish came from the stocking of 1911, as this fish was taken in August 1930.

There is no doubt in my mind that mirror carp came to England before the Leney stockings.

There is further evidence of a 191/2 lb mirror caught by JT Fisher at an Epping Forest lake in 1919. Also the same water produced a mirror of 21lbs in 1926. Apperently these carp had been brought over from Germany.

Some of the huge carp caught or found dead in South Africa in the 30s were all mirrors. However today, many of the carp there are commons, no doubt due to the natural reversion of the species to the wild scaling.

We used to catch many SA carp that were what are called fully scaled mirrors, however the linear form of mirror was very rare.

As regards carp for food, they were never reared too big. About 5 pounds at the most.

As a person who has eaten carp I can assure you that fish over 10 lbs are quite horrid.

Another interesting water of the 50s was Benniworth Haven (Woldale) in Lincolnshire.

There were two lakes in actual fact. The smaller lake contained the carp, about 30 all told and ALL mirrors. I am not sure when these carp were stocked but Maurice Ingahm remembers seeing them in the 1930s Based on the size of the fish and the fact that Benniworth was a small lake, these fish could have been stocked at about the same time as the first Mapperley fish.

They never got much above 17 lbs.

The young carp anglers today perhaps do not appreciate just how few carp waters existed in England in the 50s and 60s. In Yorkshire we had a lake at Pateley Bridge. I fished this on one occasion with Tag Barnes ca 1964 and caught a mirror of 9lbs 15oz. Tag would not give me a 10!! In Derbyshire, just to the South of Sheffield we had Foxon Dam and Chapel Wheel Lake. Both waters produced 20 lb fish taken by John Neville and Eric J Taylor respectively - both members of the Northern Specimen Group.

The Monk will remember the other waters at the time. Apart from Redmire (Bernithan Court), Billing Aquadrome and the Peterborough Cut, the possibility of a 20 was very slim indeed.

The carp is native to Asia, and is believed to have been first domesticated in China as a food fish about 6,000 years ago. It was probably introduced to Great Britain in the 14th or 15th centuries. Selective breeding has given rise to various forms, including the common carp with an even spread of large scales, the mirror carp with some large plate like scales, the scaleless leather carp, and the ornamental Koi carp.

without trying to add more confusion into all this...

where does the "grass carp" fit in then?..
I often presume they are all wild, in the sense that they are rarely stocked.

The Grass Carp, sometimes called Grasseater - Ctenopharyngoden idella - is native to China and other parts of Asia. It is a member of the Cyprinid family but there the resemblance to what we call a carp ends.

As far as I know, this fish has not been selectively bred but was introduced to certain waters in the west to keep weed down. They eat large volumes of aquatic vegetation.

Years ago we introduced these fish to some of our trout waters and they certainly helped remove the weed.

Grass carp can reach a weight of over 30 lbs and are extremely hard fighting. I have caught the odd one over 10 lbs on the fly rod. In addition to vegetation grass carp will eat most other things. Thy also eat aquatic insects and nymphs in large quantities.

They look like massive chub but have a much smaller mouth in proportion.

By the way, I have no experience of the culinary value of the grass carp.

Thanks for the information regarding the Mapperley fish, Ron; interesting stuff. Interesting, too, about the Epping ponds (most of which lost their carp in the 1963 freeze-up, I believe). A 19.5lb mirror from Epping in 1919 suggests it was probably stocked about 1900 or soon after. Does anyone have any information on the Epping stockings?

It seems, then, that the earliest traceable stockings with mirrors/leathers were circa 1911 (Mapperley), with the likelihood of some a little earlier (eg. Epping).

I doubt that we'll get a definitive answer as documentation will probably have been lost and it is unlikely that anyone who participated in the first stockings or witnessed them will be alive today. I think we're getting close to an approximate date, though.

Re. grass carp. I think they came from the River Amur originally (the French call them "Amur Blanc" (White Amur). I've caught them in France: rubbish fighters while being played, but become aquatic lunatics when netted! Don't like being out of water, either, and for their welfare need to be returned very quickly. They have a disconcerting tendency to shed scales, too.

Yes that's true Jim. They always reminded me of mullet in a way, similar shape, pointed mouth and loose scales.

I wonder if there are several sub-species of grass carp.

I have a theory about the year 1896. It could be that the big fish farm in Holland did a major exportation job of many of it's species then, including Galician King carp and American Large Mouth Black Bass.

The first shipments of these species to South Africa came from Holland at about this time. It may have been that certain parties were looking for edible freshwater fish too, and as we all know, bass are extremely good eating.

There is a story that during the Boer War, some British soldiers captured a farm in the Transvaal. They discovered a lake on the farm full of carp and ate the lot.

By the way Jim, there is an account of the major carp kill in Cheshunt Lake by Frank Guttfield in his book "In Search of Big Fish". Bill Keal and Alec Lewis were involved. They were both members of the Red Spinners Club who controlled the water.

Okay, so nobody buys or reads my books. It was all in A History of Carp Fishing, published in 1992. Early references in Frank Buckland's books - mirror carp brought from Germany in 1873 given to Frank Buckland who had them on display in an aquarium and others went to Woburn Abbey. There were loads of stockings in the 1890's - all over the country some via an importer/ fish farmercalled Thomas Ford and others via an acclamitisation society (very popular in this period) who brought them in directly from Germany. It's all there in the book, still available, although only a few left, and will be updated with much more info in a new edition out in about 6 months (real reason for posting!!!). It's possible mirror carp were in the UK prior to 1804 but that is revealed in the new edition as is the time they first appeared in Europe.

By the way Ron, the big Dutch fish farm (Nederlandsche Heidemaatschappij - say that with your mouth full of mashed potato) didn't exist in 1896 as you suggest. It began in 1899 and as far as I know it first supplied the UK viaDonald Leney in 1923/25 (Donald Leney gave me two different dates in various correspondence. Various carp introductions that took placein different parts of the world in the 1890-period were due to the popularity of acclimitisation societies (see the book -They Dined on Eland) and the carp invariably came from Germany or parts ofthe then partitioned Poland (and not Holland as you suggest). King carp were not present in Holland until 1899 when 12 brood stock were imported.

The Warren Pond (Epping Forest)stocking dateis also in the book (1904 stocked after pond drained - fish came from Germany)as are photos of some of the fish caught there

The theory of the spread and thefirst UK carp introductions being facilitated by monks (and religious orders) has been pretty much discounted by the work of Hofmann viathe examination and identification of fish bone remains in abbey stews and secular stews.

You are probably absolutely right Kevin. Most of my facts came from notes held by the Rand Piscatorial Association which is based in Johannesburg. The date 1899, could be misconstrued as 1896. The RPA were involved in the acclimatisation of brown and rainbow trout in the Eastern Transvaal ca 1919 and carp around Johannesburg ca 1918.

I used to have a copy of Freshwater Fishes of South Africa by Rex Jubb,a man who was regarded as the number one authority on this subject. It appears that he might have been mistaken where Jonkershoek Hatchery near Capetown got some of their stock.

The RPAalso stocked a number of still waters with both Largemouth and Smallmouth bass.

Unfortunately I wasn't around then in spite of what some people might think.

And I do have a copy of both your books.

And I emigrated to SA in 1967, not 1971

And I can pronounce Nederlandsche Heidemaatschappij perfectly.

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