Spring Carp Mortality Syndrome (SCMS)

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of Spring Carp Mortality Syndrome (SCMS)?

I've done the usual research and gleaned some basic knowledge, but what I'd like is to hear from anyone who has been involved with a fishery that was struck with SCMS - mortality rate, what they did about it, and how long it took before it was safe to restock the water. Any information at all would be appreciated.

For info, SCMS is a carp related disease that attacks the gill tissues, knitting them together and starving the fish of oxygen. I'm told that it usually kills 40% to 90% of the stock.

Graham - didn't Clattercote suffer from this, or was it a different issue? If so BW may talk to you. Again, may have been something else, but I seem to remember RMC suffering once ?

Sorry to say, but a competitor web site carries this here from Dr Paul Garner.

I think the best advice I have heard is - don't keep adding fish to the ponds/lakes. Each time you do there's a risk of introducing some new virus.

I believe, that ECHO are currently doing, or sponsoring some research into SCMS.?

I've managed to get some info off the net, but there is nowhere near enough known about it.

The bottom line is that it looks like it's caused mainly by stocking with infected fish, usually from abroad, or infected nets have been used by someone who has just returned from abroad where they fished an infected water. It also seems that there is little you can do about it other than let it run its course and then start again with certified stock.

That?s a frightening thought Graham, I read a piece where it said that some of the venues didn?t alert the environmental agency through fear of killing off their own business thru word of mouth etc. And in the main you gotta feel for them and thinking about it, if it?s a disease that?s just gotta run its course then was there any point alerting them. I suppose the downside in not alerting them is that it never really got high enough on the radar until to late.

Probably to noddy bashers such as Ron, Baz and Mel though,cos we don't use nets abroad.....(torch paper lit)

The club I'm involved with informed the EA 10 days ago. They came and took a fish away for examination and we haven't heard a word since. I can't comment further at this stage but right now I'm not very impressed, and that's putting it mildly.

impressed with whom Graham? the club? the EA or the bad news abot your venue?

I doubt very much if it's caused by nets, Graham. All the time I am told by numerous people at the EA and even other fishery management consultants that it is almost impossible to transmit a disease on a net.

It would have to be transported from one infected fishery, having had a diseased fish within it, to another within 1 hour and for an uninfected fish to be palced immediately in the same net. Even then it's only a remote chance that the new fish will become infected.

There's more chance of spreading around viruses and other nasties by having dip tanks that aren't maintained. A 30 second dip in a fresh mixture does very little, you need to soak if it for 15 - 30 minutes. An old mixture has even less effect.

Drying nets thoroughly is by far the best way. What water born disease can survive on a dry net?

I MOSTLY agree with you there Jeff...

BUT... IF, and it may be a BIG IF... nets could transmit diseases, i'm sure you can recall more than one occasion where you have fished more than one venue in a session, and within an hour!..

I'm sure i have...

Lake to River.
Lake to Lake.


It's amazing the condition of the net dips at MOST fisheries.. or club waters. They insist you use them, but they cant be arsed to top up, cover up the solution. I'm sure it's mostly rainwater half the time.

Any way....

Back to the sring carp.....

Stuart, I'm not impressed with any of it, but I was meaning the EA in this instance. Not hearing from them 10 days after they took a fish away, and every day fish are dying, is not good at all. Just a note or a phone call to say they're waiting for a slot in the lab, or whatever the holdup is, would have been better than nothing.

Even though we're sure the problem is SCMS we still want to know for absolute certain, and from there we want some advice on what we should be doing about it. The first and obvious move is to close the water to fishing, to look for and bury the bodies of the dead fish each day, which is currently ongoing.

And then what?

The questions we want answering are:

1. Is there anything that can be done to arrest the disease?

2. How long after the last dead fish is found does the water have to remain closed?

3. How long before new stock can be introduced?

4. Will the surviving stock still be carrying the virus, although immune themselves?

5. If yes, should they be removed from the fishery and killed?

5. Is there anything we can do to stop it happening again?

Jeff, thanks for the advice about the net dipping. It's what I suspected anyway.

Stuart said, "I read a piece where it said that some of the venues didn?t alert the environmental agency through fear of killing off their own business thru word of mouth etc. And in the main you gotta feel for them and thinking about it, if it?s a disease that?s just gotta run its course then was there any point alerting them."

Yes, I can understand to some extent why they didn't but the more cases are reported the better for collecting data about it and subsequently developing preventative measures or even cures. However, if the EA just come along and take a fish and then leave you to get on with it then you have to ask again if there is any point in reporting it.

Graham, it must be ever so distressing to see fish dying and not being informed by the EA as to why or what you can do to stop it. Once it has a hold on a fishery I don't know what you can do and I doubt that the EA people have any or all the answers either. It's a mystery and one that causes real aggravation.

Nick, it really is the case that if you have used your net in the river and then use it in a lake, the chances of transmitting something are billions to one. There's more chance of fairies coming to clean you net than of chemicals to do it in the short time that anglers dip them for.

Also, river fish suffer less from disease and parasites, especially gill flukes, than do stillwater fish mainly because of moving water. So even if you took a net from an infected water to a river, any infection or infestation would probably all be washed off and away.

The chances of transmitting anything from river to lake - well, have you ever studied the odds of a googolplex to one, before? I believe 'impossible' is the word that would sum it up unless the river was so slow it was allmost a stillwater.

The reason I am posting all this is to set aside to anyone reading it that dipping is an absolute waste of time. Most infections etc. are cause by fish introductions, hence the reason that movement of livebaits was stopped, or over population.

"hence the reason that movement of livebaits was stopped"

Probably not the place to go into this but as far as i am aware there is no evidence whatsoever that transporting livebaits ever has, or ever will introduce infections / diseases into waters. Just another EA over-reaction I'm afraid.

Sorry - back to the carp now...

Thats a fair point Barney, but rather safe than sorry. Would you take the risk if this was you very own venue?

You are wrong Gary, because you are right to discuss it here.

You could have a point also, but there is more tangeable evidence to support the transmission of disease via unhealthy bait fish, along with other fish introductions, than via landing/keep nets. As Stuart says, would you want to risk it on your fishery?

It is a matter of law anyway, that the movement of any fish is prohibited without section 30 consent. What's wrong with catching baits in the water where they're intended to be used?

Graham
Paul Garner tels it like it is, so if you've not read the link offered, I'd suggest you do so ASAP.

You might want to talk to someone at CEFAS as well, to see if they've come up with more evidence since Paul wrote his piece.

Could I offer this advice when burying dead fish, put some lime in with the body as it's know to be one of the best Sterilizers known to man for destroying pathogens and viruses.

Yes guys, I would risk it on my fishery, because I don't think it is a risk. Most diseases ARE already indiginous in every lake river or stream.

Personally I think it is nothing but a joke that the EA will legally transfer thousands of fish from one venue to another, with the only health certification is a half a dozen fish are killed and examined. What about the other 99.9% Are they all healthy ? - are they bollox.

Now you tell me who carries the biggest risk of transferring a disease, the EA, who have introduced the law, or the pike/perch angler with half a dozen 4oz roach in a bucket?

I take it you agree then...

No - I don't agree.

In a fishery that is diseased there is a good chance that many of the fish will show sign of being carriers, usually ergosillus or soemthing similar. I don't know what the kill and test factor is these days, but we abandoned one application because they wanted to kill 30 fish so we could move 200.

The point is, many fisheries are known to the EA and providing they have shown no sign of disease then moving fish (under controlled conditions) is not a problem. If every tom, **** or Gary (sorry about that, it was too tempting) starts moving fish from anywhere they can, it is uncontrolled.

If later a disease were to break out who would be responsible? How could you backtrack to prevent further spread? I worked for several years in the pharmaceuticals industry and tracking base chemical ingrediaents and end products is vital to save lives. That's how tight it should be with fisheries as well.

All due respects to Gary, but I think the law is necessary.

Hiya,

This is my first Post on these forums, so I hope this is useful info:

Having recently experianced a fish mortality on a local water this summer (un-identified by EA/CEFAS) I would very much urge any club/fishery to contact CEFAS.

They are extremely helpful and friendly. I'd heard some things about SMCS and wanted to get the facts - so dropped them a mail and gave them a call:

Extract of email from CEFAS:

"As you may know Spring Carp Mortality Syndrome has been a somewhat thorny subject for Carp fisheries over the last 10 or so years. Here at CEFAS we have been working in close partnership with other research bodies to try and establish the cause of SCMS.

Up to the present day we have been unable to isolate a causative agent for the syndrome, therefore no test that we perform here (be it cell culture, PCR, transmission etc) would be effective. However the good news is that we have just undertaken a new piece of research, co-funded by the Environment Agency, DEFRA and ECHO in an effort to try and establish a causative agent. All the indicators point to the fact that there will be a CA as it only seems to affect Carp and we have been getting some (all be it inconsistant) cytopathic effect on cell lines.

As with most of these things, they are easier to discuss than write down so If you want to discuss this in a bit more detail, please give me a ring on my office number."

You can contact your local CEFAS lab using the details on this page: http://www.cefas.co.uk/Contact-addresses.htm

Hope this helps.

Rob