Commercials

How do we define which fisheries are "commercials" and which are not?

Many anglers, like me, don't like carp puddles not because we don't particularly like carp but because these venues are often less natural in many ways and don't contain big fish or lack the variety or mystery of natural waters.

However, there are some excellent commercially owned/run waters that are very mature, with a wide variety of species, to specimaen size, but are boycotted some anglers as they are classed as commercial, or because of the cost of tickets (especially down south).

What do you think?

What do these waters hold for the future of angling?

my understanding of a commercial is one that is controlled or owned through a direct financial transaction and is not run by a club/syndicate or elected officials under a democratic process ie a club can own a water, but it is run democratically and influenced by its membership. In the case of a private fishery, this is run purely like a business with no democratic process applied.

That might not be such a bad idea, though Monk.

What's in a name? A rose by any other would smell as sweet.

There are some that are down right apalling, badly damaged fish, stunted fish, diseased fish, all manner of problems. There are others that are shining examples of how a fishery should be run. I can't think of many though.

sounds a bit like the TOCs Jeff?

Commercial is as the name suggests means run for profit whereas clubs and syndicates usually are not.

Personally i don't like fishing for stocked fish and instead spend the vast majority of my time fishing for fish that were born and have lived all their lives in the same water. Without exception commercial fisheries are stocked and so i don't fish them.

Commercial fisheries including mature managed waters have have stocking levels that are far higher than wild waters i.e. waters that have not been stocked or managed in 25 years. this varies between 7-28 times as much fish by mass according to a recent EA report.

There is nothing wrong with well managed commercial fisheries and they serve a need. However, last year the EA consented the the stocking of almost 2 million carp and if that continues it may lead to the loss of natural diversity in our waters.

To me, a commercial water is what it says, run to provide profit for the owner and nothing else.

There are however some excellent commercial waters that are well run and do provide value for money. I fish a few of them, mainly for stocked rainbow trout.

I do get very upset when many commercial waters are only ever stocked with toy carp hoever. Andy is absolutely right. We really should do something to stop the continual stocking of carp. This destructive species is destroying the wonderful variety of indigenous fish that we used to have in Britain.

What's wrong with a rudd water, or a roach water?

I've seen some of the best tench waters in England destroyed by the stocking of carp.

I don't like commerecials either, for resons given above. Mainly because the ones I know of are only in it for profit, and know very little about fish keeping.
One comercial, I have heard say that they will never stock silver fish again, because of cormorant predation. Also some are well overstocked, I have said it before, these places should be checked by the E.A.

"I've seen some of the best tench waters in England destroyed by the stocking of carp."

On the flip side of this Ron, is that some of the biggest and finest looking tench in the country come from carp waters!

many carp waters hold large specimen fish of other species (but less of that specie)and I believe a lot of these fish are the result of anglers carp baits. The Carp Society`s Horseshoe Lake contains some cracking coarse fish. Not sure though whether these large specimens are not part of a transitional period though? In waters in warmer climes carp have managed to wipe out all indigenous sps and long term have even managed to stunt themselves!

The Monk has a very good point.

I know of one big carp water in the Midlands that holds huge tench. I would love to fish for them but due to the presence of one very big ratfish, you can't get a look in.

The place is surrounded all the time, summer and winter.

Commercial. Having profit as its main aim. Thats the dictionary definition.

People who own land on which theres a pool or river fishing rights rent it out for profit. So that would put Redmire, the Hants Avon the Severn etc. as a commercial water.

Fishermen though tend to think of commercial waters as 'carp puddles', a derisory term for somewhare where its easy to catch fish because of the stocking levels. Trout fishing is nearly all done on 'commercials' because thats the only place most fly fishermen can afford to fish. Not for them the wonderful chalk streams of Britain because they can't afford it.

I like to think I can go and fish anywhere the notion takes me and enjoy the experience but I admit I do tend to shy away from match commercials. If I have to pay, as I almost always do, then its commercial in my eyes because someones making money out of me.

"Personally i don't like fishing for stocked fish"

Not wishing to pick a fight, but how do you think those fish got into the Tring Resevoirs in the first place, Andy? There might now be a few natural borns, but many were stocked long, long ago.

Can anyone name any large "natural" lakes south of the Lake District? Most down here have been dug and stocked, whether legally or illegally.

That's actually true Jeff.

But there is a huge difference beween waters that were stocked and then left alone to find their natural population levels to waters that are overstocked so that anglers can "Bag Up."

Some waters, especially gravel pits were never officially stocked. However many species found their way there by natural ways. Ova on birds legs and the flooding of such waters by rivers for example.

There's that place that opened last year R.C.Lay Enterprises or something like that. Didn't he change the name to Lake Fiddlemore?

i think you missed my point Jeff the other half of the sentance you quoted continued:

"and spend the majority of my time fishing for fish that were born and have lived all their lives in the same water"

At Tring I fish for Bream and Roach on Startops and Tench and Perch on Wilstone all of which will have been born in the water since none of those species have been stocked during the lifetimes of any of the fish within the current populations.

I never mentioned man made waters and personally I don't have a problem with man made waters. That said waters that are not "managed" are likely to be older more mature waters anyway.

Of course waters nedd stocking in various circumstances e.g. a new gravel pit or a watrer that has suffered from pollution or had species die out or sucumb to disease.

Constant tinkering with stocks that creates an artifical population that would not occur if the water were left to find its own balance. Like boillies it dumbs down fishing !

"Can anyone name any large "natural" lakes south of the Lake District? Most down here have been dug and stocked, whether legally or illegally."


The Cheshire and Shropshire Meres ........???

It isnt always the lake that offends it is the "bagging at all costs" mentality that rubs against the grain.

f1 carp are an offence against nature and their creation is beyond contempt!

The environment agency should be ashamed!

Right on Ed! but you forgot the Staffs meres.

Taking up Andy?s point about man made waters, lakes, reservoirs (non-trout), gravel pits, flashes and fenland systems which, were stocked over a hundred or so years ago, then allowed to get on with natural recruitment with little or no input of further stock.

These to me are manmade natural waters, which have a natural stock level for the available biomass the water produces.

Commercials on the other hand have a fish population artificially high, maintained by anglers bait and supplementary feeding by the owners way above the natural biomass production of those waters.

True Natural waters Cheshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire, and Norfolk Broads system are the same as manmade natural waters. E.g., a fish stock to the level of the natural biomass production of the water/system.

Jeff it might interest you to know that most of the Lake District Lakes were up until the 1950s managed commercially for food fish.
Perch were tined in oil and called Perchiens, Char and other whitefish were sold both locally and regionally and the same for pike and brown trout. Salmon went to the best dinner tables of the landed gentry regionally. Some commercial fishing still takes place on some of the Lakes but economically is insignificant to what it was.

I do however share the concerns of others about the obsession with putting carp in every water by clubs, syndicates and owners. In some circumstances the stocking of carp has as has been pointed out, resulted in the decimation of the natural fish stock. This is particularly true in shallow waters where the temperature warms quickly to a point where the carp will and do breed, resulting in a species shift to predominantly carp only.
I fear that if we are not careful, we will in the not too distant future, lose our natural fish heritage in many parts of England in particular.
And that will be a complete ecological disaster if it?s allowed to happen!

What do these waters hold for the future of angling?

A great deal if the lakes are used for teaching children. Because many hold good or high levels of stock its great to teach the basics on, the children should have plenty of fun and want to come back for more. Once hooked they will hopefully move on to both rivers and lakes and keep our sport alive for the future.
The trouble is that there are many lakes privately owned and/or under club ownership that do not use them to the best of their ability.

Whoa! Like I said I wasn't picking a fight with anyone in particular. I just wante to make the point that most lakes, especially land-locked lakes man-made or otherwise, have been stocked at some stage or other.

I used to believe that fish were transferred to a water by the ova carried on a water bird's feet. I now think that's a bigger myth than Father Christmas and many fisheries officers at the EA think likewise.

Personally, I don't like some of the big reservoirs at Tring as they do look artificial. It's the way I am, although Startopsend is probably the nicest. And I do accept that a lot of fish in there were born in there.

As for the meres, a lot were dug for the lorded gentry although some were created by landslip, I suppose that, in a way, is as natural as you can get. As for stocking, it's better to understock always and let the lake fill nicely to it's own level, that I agree with.

How do you deal with an 80 acre lake where the roach, bream and perch stocks have been virtually wiped out by cormorants? If you replace with those species it would cost a fortune (c ?500,000 at least) and they would also be subject to pedation. Or you can stock with larg-ish carp and let them grow to 40 or 50 pounds and then at least soemone will get soem pleasure out of the fishing.