New equipment

Ken Loades · Feb 7, 2005

After reading a thread on dedicated pike rods in comparison to carp rods someone mentioned about todays rod technology. Do you think that in all honesty the newer and more advanced the rod the more fish we catch?

I do admit that rods will make some diference when having to chuck a bait a long way but would a basic stiff action rod suffice for carping / piking in smaller waters where it is not necessary for extreme distance? Have better rods made it easier for the novice angler to land big fish and, as a result, have fish playing techniques declined since split cane and glass fibre rods were the norm?

Lots of questions and lets see everyones consensus of opinion!

Ron 'The Hat' Clay · Feb 7, 2005

One thing modern rods do do is make angling a great more enjoyable. They are lighter and more responsive and yes, they do enable you to catch more fish.

This is particularly true with fly rods, yet less so with pike rods.

My friend John has a couple of ancient glass rods he steadfastly refuses to replace, claiming that they are just nicely broke in.

He catches lots of good pike. One of these rods has been used for catching many high twenties and a thirty in the past.

In terms of fly rods however, I should hate to have to go back to the old split cane and glass wrist breakers of 30 or 40 years ago.

Baz · Feb 7, 2005

I have just read an old article by Chris Yates, he says a split cane rod will subdue a fish a lot quicker than a carbon rod.

Ron, I think you have used both, what is your oppinion on this?

The Monk · Feb 7, 2005

a split cane rod will subdue an angler a lot quicker too Baz, do you remember how heavy these things were mate? and try holding a 18 ft bamboo roach pole for a few hours and compair that with the things they have today.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay · Feb 7, 2005

Dear Old Chris (Actually he is younger than me) is probably harping back to the early days of glass fibre when there was all sorts of debates flying around ca 1965 about the tendency of a tube to become oval when bent.

This tendency does not happen with modern carbon tubes, except perhaps with poles which have very thin walls in relation to their outside diameters.

If a tube is bent, then the progressive resistance to being bent gets less compared with a solid rod like split cane who's resistance increases because the section modulus stays the same.

It was actually **** Walker, who because of this tendency, suggested that a hexagon shape similar to split cane be manufactured by layering carbon fibre strip on a flexible yet incompressable core. Bruce and Walker took up ****'s suggestion and have since manufactured a range of rods called "Hexagraphs", still available to this day.

The truth of the matter is that for all practicle purposes, modern carbon blanks do not actually become oval when flexed. Walker, in conjuction with Hardys (I think), actually tested many carbon blanks using extremely accurate measuring equipment and could find no ovality taking place even close to fracture.

I'm afraid that Chris Yates' statement that a split cane rod will tire a fish quicker than carbon can be chucked in the files of antiquity and bad practical science.

If there is any truth in Yates' pontification, why is it that modern carbon fly rods can outcast split cane fly rods by a country mile?

Baz · Feb 7, 2005

I used a split cane rod once for trotting a float. My elbow joint was sore for months after, I'm sure I pulled something.

NottmDon · Feb 7, 2005

I think that theres little doubt that rods have improved and thus they improve the chances of playing a fish and landing it. There is a tendency however in todays fishing not to play fish but to "haul them out". Going fishing "over gunned" is a term I would use. The fish aren't played they are dragged in without much chance of putting a bend in the rod. This unfortunate practise is even used in pole fishing now, margin poles with 20+ elastics and the poles themselves shorter and even stronger. It as been said before no doubt, but I think there is a tendency to either buy a record fish or failing that use any means available to land it without concern for the fishes welfare or the thrill of the fight. People are missing out on a lot of pleasure by taking this drag em out at all costs route. The pleasure from using balanced tackle appropriate to catching the targetted species is something I enjoy and no doubt properly balanced modern rods help me do this Ken. The cane rods I used as a kid were horrid things compared to the modern rods. Having said that though, as a kid the rods were either hand me downs or jumble sale jobs and not of the quality that some one like Chris Yates can enthuse about.The modern cane rods I am told are really a joy to use and I dont doubt it.

Baz · Feb 7, 2005

CHRIS YATES ARTICLE

I?ve owned several Mark Four Avons ? a rod originally designed by **** Walker for chub and barbell fishing. My first version, by the rod makers B. James, had an undeniably good vibration and always outfished my other rods.
But then I actually got hold of an Avon that **** Walker had built himself, and this rod had a wonderously arcane (forgive the pun) property.

If you had three cane rods built to the same specification by the same builder, only one of them would have that special quality.

It?s greatest moment came when I put down the more powerful MKIV ?Carp? rod I?d been using that particular day and took up the ?Avon? instead. My luck changed instantly, and an hour later and I?d landed the biggest carp in Britain.

I have taken the above from the article by Chris Yates, I hope that?s okay.
And you are right Monk, it did subdue me.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay · Feb 7, 2005

I have owned a few Mk IV carp rods and MkIV Avons in my life. Make no mistake in those days they were wonderous tools and without doubt at the cutting edge of technology in terms of split cane as a material.

The best of them was one I assemble myself from a Southwell blank. It was a far better rod than those made by B James, which used to take on awful sets.

In fact about 1963, B James had to increase the across flats dimensions of their Mk IVs to compensate for the very poor cane they were made of. They somehow lost that "steely" quality the earlier rods possessed.

Yes, I can understand in this case what Chris is trying to say.

Ken Loades · Feb 7, 2005

Your comments, Don and everybody else, are great especially with regard to fly rods and I fully appreciate the joys of a light rod when fly fishing as opposed to a "wrist breaker"!

Don, you mentioned that fish are "hauled" out now with little fight and barely a bend in the rod. "over gunned" is a very apt description of the process and that is where I was coming from when saying that I felt some of the skill had gone out of playing a fish.

Pole fishing for carp, why? I have never done this and feel that the fish must suffer more than if caught with a normal rod and reel. I was speaking to someone at the weekend who said he had caught a 20lb carp on a single pinkie and size 18 hook with a pole that took him an hour to land. Surely pole fishing shouldn't be allowed where fish are, on average, double figures? We all care about looking after the fish and I am sure catching large carp on poles is not a good way of showing it.

Possibly gone off track a bit with regard to poles on this thread but these are new technologies which are changing the way we fish. For the better? maybe, but only if the new type of tackle is being used to catch the right fish.

Baz · Feb 8, 2005

I could really send it off track now Ken, especially with your last sentence.
................................
but only if the new type of tackle is being used to catch the right fish.
.......................................
I agree entirely with what you say.

Andy "the Dog" Nellist · Feb 8, 2005

Cane is wood and whilst it looks great and it feels great it is awful to use when compared to carbon fibre because it is heavy and clumsy.

How many tennis players do you see using wooden rackets, golfers using wooden clubs or skiers using wooden skis ?

Some will choose to do so but not becasue they are better than their modern succesors.

The effect of rod development has been that most anglers can now afford to buy rods that are more than good enough for most of their needs and they have made playing fish so much more enjoyable.

Bully · Feb 8, 2005

Ken - some interesting points made above, however your original question said

"Do you think that in all honesty the newer and more advanced the rod the more fish we catch?"

"..... have fish playing techniques declined since split cane and glass fibre rods were the norm?".

In terms of the first question, I have yet to find a rod that helps in water craft no matter what the rod used !

In terms of the second question I dont have an issue at all with new technology making it easier. I believe someone said that the new technology meant some less experienced anglers would simply "haul them out". Surely getting a fish on the bank quickly is better for the fish ?

I once read a post (not on this thread) where someone actually thought giving the fiah a chance to get away was a good thing. Personally I think that is crap. A banked fish, properly cared for and released is better than one trailing line or stuck in a snag.

I fully agree with Andy's last paragraph above.

NottmDon · Feb 8, 2005

I agree with what you say Ken with regard to some of the points raised regarding pole fishing for carp. The modern "carp cruncher" poles are designed to get big carp(in match fishing terms) out quickly. The trouble starts when Mr Joe Inexperience buys such a pole without first learning the basics such as balanced tackle and the right type of elastics. The same could be said for the modern rods to a lesser degree. Some of the mouths of the commercial waters carp population are ripped to bits because inexperienced anglers buy the equivalent of bungee elastics and all they know regarding landing a fish is "pull and pull some more" instead of leting the elastic do the work. I am also at odds with myself to a degree because I do agree with what Bully says about banking a fish quickly. My "quickly" would be to play the fish but not till the fish is utterly exhausted. I wouldnt go over gunned in order to haul a fish out with brute force and I think your thread is concerned with this tactic. Over playing or just plain old hauling are equally as bad in my opinion. No modern rod can compensate for bad angling! Again I agree with Bully that "watercraft" is essential as is the skill of using balanced tackle combined with a modiucm of common sense. No rod will give you these essentials, they are learned through experience and through forums such as this. Great thread Ken, thought provoking and intelligent opinions given by all.

Jim Gibbinson · Feb 9, 2005

Everything is new at some stage in its development; take the progression of line: horse-hair, silk, gut, nylon, polymer etc. So it's been with rods, reels....and just about everything else we use.

Re. cane rods. If someone wants to ascribe virtues to cane that it doesn't possess, that's fine - they're entitled to their opinions and no-one is forced to listen to them!

I'm all for incorporating modern developments in terms of design and materials into the tackle I use; I am, however, uncomfortable with equipment that acts as a substitute for traditional angling skills - bait-boats, for example.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay · Feb 9, 2005

Ah Jim, there's a controversial subject - bait boats.

Worthy of a new thread.

woody · Feb 9, 2005

Can't help but agree with Don on fighting fish. It's a balance, you don't want to spend too long or toxic acids build up in the muscle tissue, but you don't want to over-bully them because that does lead to ripped mouths etc.

I don't think it matters how advanced the tackle becomes. It might be easier to use or more comfortable for the angler, but it's still you on the one end and a cunning, wily animal at the other that spent many millions of years practicing self-survival techniques.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay · Feb 9, 2005

Playing fish is an art.

As Woody says, skulldragging will damage the fish as will playing them for long periods of time on tackle that is not up to the job.

Achieving the balance is one of the skills of angling.

Peter Jacobs · Feb 9, 2005

It seems to me that some people are totally missing the point about fishing with a Cane rod, and/or a centrepin reel, and not only on this thread either.

I use cane rods and centrepin reels from time to time simply for the nostalgia of doing so. In resonably experienced hands (and after all most of us have some of that commodity, don't we?) they are no more difficult to use than their modern counterparts.

I would agree that there exists a "purist" or "traditionalist" grouping of anglers who skoff at modern developments, but then the opposite also applies wherein some anglers would not be happy unless, and until, everyone used a bait boat and electronic wizardry.

It is not a case of who is right and who is wrong in this regard, but simply a matter of what suits, when it suits and to whom it suits!

I would never try to attribute qualities to any rod that it does not possess and neither would any of my angling friends who also like to use the cane and pin from time to time.

Not all Cane rods are ancient either, experience fighting a decent sized chub or barbel on a Barder Merlin for example and see if you don't enjoy that episode.

One of the great attractions of FM was that it was a place where ALL anglers regardless of their 'passion' could openly discuss all matters piscatorial, (ops, sorry modern anglers - I mean topics about fish) but to me it seems that we have been straying away from that lately.

Just my thoughts obviously, others may differ!

Ron 'The Hat' Clay · Feb 9, 2005

And anyone who for old times sake loves to use split cane rods etc, than who shall say him nay!!

We each enjoy angling in many different ways.

"Vive la difference."

Otherwise this sport of ours could be very boring.

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