Expensive groundbaits

Wolfman Woody · Jun 8, 2005

I've been trying to find good, inexpensive dog foods these last few days and with Stuart Heard's help got one. There's loads of nutrition in it and it looks well designed and made, yet at anything from ?14 - ?18 per 15kgs it's relatively cheap -

compared to our groundbaits.

Why do we recommend using Vitalin for carp, which is a dog food muesli at about ?10 for 15 kilos? Because it's a lot cheaper than the rip off prices at tackle shops (not necessarily their fault though, it's manufacturers). Work out the price of most groundbaits you buy from tackle stores and similar qauntities (15kgs) would cost you over ?50.

Why is it so dear?

What makes angler's groundbait so damned expensive when carefully prepared dog meals can be made and sold at a fraction of the cost?

Frank "Chubber" Curtis · Jun 8, 2005

Simple! Not so big a market.

Graham Whatmore · Jun 8, 2005

I could be cynical and say "fishermen will pay the price" but I won't!

A basic breadcrumb with additives of various descriptions and flavours works just the same but it doesn't come in a packet and means you have to put yourself out a bit. Convenience meals are a good comparison.

I never buy commercial groundbait because I think its expensive and unnecessary, and its expensive because they know that the average fisherman will buy it. I think I would be on safe ground to say that the cost of production bears no relationship to the cost on the shelf.

njb51 · Jun 8, 2005

Very true! But as you say its not the shops fault generally.
Generally taackle prices have increased due to the introduction of the internet and e-commerce. You can usually buy alot cheaper online which pushes the price of tackle up in the shops.

I had a look in a shop at a local farm the other day.

20Kg Hemp = ?15
20Kg Mixed Corn = ?4

Jonny

Peter Jacobs · Jun 8, 2005

Jeff,

I have been lucky enough to have had trips around the Sensas factory in France, and have also bought and sold large quantities of continental groundbaits when I ran my on-the-side-tackle-business in Norway.

Firstly, you would be amazed at the number of individual ingredients that go into a Sensas mix and the cost of those raw materials.
Then you have individual packaging, transport/shipping, local warehousing and transport to the retail outles to consider.

Compare that to the economies of scale that the people who produce Vitalin for example sold in huge sacks and you will begin to see why thre is such a price difference

You can still get reasonable discounts on continental groundbaits if you buy them by the box (24 kilos) but not from all tackle shops.

I use continental mixes almost exclusively because I far prefer the attraction qualitiess and lesser feed values of a tried and tested mix over the feed-em-up-and hope for the best approach from most home made recipes.

It is personal choice in the final analysis but very much dependant on how much you are prepared to pay per kilo for a groundbait that you will have confidence in using.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay · Jun 8, 2005

I Have just purchased 30 bags of Expo for my summer tench and bream fishing. I got it at less 20% of the normal price.

I have tremendous faith in Expo as a tench ground bait. It does get mixed with brown crumb and other things of course, but to me it has alway proved a winner.

I have had many 100lb + bags of tench and bream in the fens using the stuff.

Wolfman Woody · Jun 8, 2005

I take on board what you all say, but I'm inclined to agree with Graham's comment -"fishermen will pay the price".

If the pack size is a problem, what's to stop them supplying it in 5 and 10 kilo bags? Nothing! You can't tell me that all the ingredients, even in Expo, come to as much as 30p or 40p. Allow for shipping and everyone's mark-up they still make a massive profit. Don't forget that unlike food, there is no "use by" dates on them so no stock is written off as out-of-date.

"Firstly, you would be amazed at the number of individual ingredients that go into a Sensas mix and the cost of those raw materials." No I wouldn't, Peter, and I've worked with B-O-M listings for stuff that runs into hundreds of ingredients. There's not even a stringent quality control on the stuff, I bet very little is ever thrown away.

Rip off, that's what I now think.

Peter Jacobs · Jun 9, 2005

Jeff,
As far as Sensas are concerned they market their Base Mixes, both Etang and Fond in 3 kilo bags for economy, and most of their Leams are sold in 5 kilo bags.

Jeff, as a businessman you know the rules governing supply, demand and pricing strategy, as do I.
So, yes, there is obviously a degree of; "they will pay the price" in the final pricing policy.

As I said, it is all down to individual choice, personally I am more than happy to pay whatever the going price is for good, tried and tested groundbaits that (more importantly) I have faith and confidence in using.

Wolfman Woody · Jun 9, 2005

"you know the rules governing supply, demand and pricing strategy"

I certainly do. I used to work for the company that made Vitalis Hair Tonic and retailed it for around ?3 per bottle. I can tell you it was made in a 50 gallon barrel with a big wooden paddle and the ingredients were simple as could be. DMWater, glycerine, 2 dyes, perfume and a stabiliser. Including the bottle and screw top it was made for 11p a bottle and sold for 15p in the factory shop. My father-in-law used it.

Still doesn't make it right.

EC · Jun 9, 2005

I believe that SOME 'off the shelf' groundbaits offer qualities that home made groundbaits don't, if only through my lack of knowledge in what to use.

Examples include, Expo which is as Ron said a great attractor, I have also used a lot of Supercup which has excellent 'activity' and attraction, and other groundbaits which offer little food value but good attraction and activity. At approx ?2.50 a kilo, these can be diluted and can stretch a long way, they do work, and improve your confidence, which is why they are good sellers.

That said, I do believe that some of the heavier 'feed' type groundbaits are expensive, you can knock a method mix together for much less than ?1 a kilo if you take time to research and source your ingredients!

I wonder if anyone in the know will tell us just what is in some of these mixes, and more importantly where the ingredients can be sourced. I would be really interested to know!

Peter Jacobs · Jun 10, 2005

Jeff,

Wasn't it Billy Walker (the boxer) who was "The Vitalis Kid?"

Matt Brown · Jun 10, 2005

Vitalin and the like can be great when mixed with bulk bought Brown Crumb for species such as Tench, Bream and Carp, but try using the stuff for Roach on a clear canal in winter.

Low feed value groundbaits, designed for attraction only, are not available any other way.

Also, along the line of what Peter said, the cost of the ingreadients is a only a small part of why something costs what it does. Packaging, shipping, marketing, importers margin, retailers margin etc. all often cost more than people realise.

Graham Whatmore · Jun 10, 2005

The more experienced of you will know but maybe the less experienced won't, that you can buy breadcrumb in different grades such as fine, medium and course, all designed for different situations.

I am far from being an expert on making up groundbaits but with a little thought and a bit of sniffing at commercial stuff you can certainly come up with a very usable and, if you are either lucky or clever, a successful one. Smell is what attracts the fish in the first place but I believe fish respond to smells that we can't even detect so a large element of guesswork must come into it.

Somebody posted on here, can't remember who, about making groundbaits fizz, well I happened to go to the groundbait section of Ebay as a result of reading this thread and look what I found here

Wolfman Woody · Jun 10, 2005

That's an interesting one Graham. ?2.00 to "buy it now" plus ?10 p&p, but tell him you want 2 kilos instead and it's ?12 post included. Why put 250 grams on the listing then?

However, do you think this is worth investigating further? Sounds good although you don't always require a fizz.

Peter Jacobs · Jun 10, 2005

"Sounds good although you don't always require a fizz."

In my experience 'fizz' is the kiss of death when Bream fishing as Bream seem to prefer, by far, a more inert groundbait.

Graham Whatmore · Jun 10, 2005

To be truthful Jeff I didn't look with the intention of buying so I never got as far as the p&p, perhaps its delivered by helicopter, thats about the only reason for such a ridiculous charge. Personally I wouldn't buy from rip off sellers like that but it certainly looks an interesting product.

Peter, yes it is true that bream prefer an inert groundbait but if you are catching a variety of fish then fizz will usually pull the fish in, including bream.

tommo · Jun 10, 2005

Slightly off topic, but anyone,lloking for good prices for groundbait should have a look here..

http://www.baitfeedonline.co.uk/acatalog/Groundbait.html

5kg of brown/white crumb ?5.45
25kg of same ?19.50
15kg Vitalin ?9.99

They also do various pellet based groundbaits etc etc. Just recieved 5kg of Marine Halibut groundbait for the start of the river season for my barbelling.

Tommo

EC · Jun 10, 2005

I have caught bream 'up in the water' using supercup, fizzy groundbaits seem to make them act a bit loopy!

Graham Whatmore · Jun 10, 2005

Tommo.

Good products and good prices but you would need to order in bulk, maybe with a couple of mates to make it worthwhile otherwise you lose the benefit of the cheap prices.

tommo · Jun 12, 2005

Graham,

Yes I would agree if it were a short term venture, but assuming you have somewhere practical to keep the bait, 25kg would be gone by the winter months, assuming you are fishing regularly on large waters.

I propose my missus as my mate (that way I can use the joint account. D'you think she'd mind ;o)...........)

Expensive groundbaits

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