Are we hoodwinked over otters?

chav professor

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Am I the only one who feels we are amnipulated to be anti otter etc?

Dear Angling Times,



Despair at otter farce.



The Angling media have been very misleading on reporting the effects that otters and cormorants have on our nation’s fisheries. I have read G whiteheads letter (Defra: stupid or dishonest) and despair.

G Williams wants a ‘proper analysis to establish the impact of otters on wild fish populations’. Well, the science of predator/prey relationships is very well understood. The first point we need to remember is that fish are part of a complex food web where organisms are prey or food items. Otters will prey on fish and be very successful – only if there is lots of fish to feed their young. When they become too successful, i.e. the fish population declines, otter numbers will decline allowing fish populations to boom due to less predation. Natural systems are self sustaining and sort themselves out. There is often a debate about why a certain species of fish has managed to grow to extraordinary proportions, we call these specimen fish. Rivers and closed systems like lakes can only support a certain amount of biomass. With fewer fish surviving due to predation, the fish that survive actually thrive because there is less competition. These eat well, grow big and reproduce. The reason why rivers and natural lakes contain specimen fish is all down to predation. For example, many of us started fishing in lakes stuffed full of stunted roach or perch, often because misguided individuals removed the pike, a predator we have now grown to love and understand!

We have created an artificial world based on giving anglers ‘what they want’. Want to catch big carp? Build a lake and stock it with specimen fish. Wants to catch lots of fish? Build a lake and overstock it to obscene proportions so anyone can catch. Then factor in how tackle companies have capitalised on manufacturing tackle to enable anglers to fish these lakes with the right gear. I can see why the otter has come under the firing line. Of course you will be upset if you have had a carp that cost you £15 000 pounds to replace eaten. Of course you will be distraught because you have to keep replacing your expensive fish stocks in your commercial match lake. But to create an unnatural situation requiring the destruction of a predator that is indigenous to the UK should indicate where this problem lies. Even in rivers and natural lakes otters will destroy a desirable specimen – this is to be expected, though equally distressing. This is probably due to the otter population struggling, and remembers that the status quo will re-establish itself.

By all means build a dream lake or match pool, but it should be expected that otters will cause devastation in an artificially managed fishery. Why should otters be persecuted due the selfish requirements of the modern angler. We often talk about our sport being under treat from the ‘anti’s’. Well I am actually embarrassed to be associated with a sport that is being manipulated into taking an anti stance on otters and cormorants. There is a ray of light, G.Williams would like to see the government pressured into tackling existing water framework directive targets and giving protection to breeding fish. Well, I practically guarantee that if anglers united under the aims of improving water habitats you could expect full support from organisations like the Wildlife Trust, R.S.P.B, etc. on common ground issues. You would be surprised who the Norfolk Angling Conservation Association worked in collaboration with to achieve their goals in improving fishing on a declining river system.
 

Jim Crosskey 2

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I'm with you on this Prof. Way too much emotional vitriol because large fish have been lost... the outpourings when that big barbel got done for by an otter was a bit much really, if you want a tame fish then keep it in the garden in a pond with a net over it. If you want wild fish, well they're going to have to survive in the big bad world and there's a chance something might eat you.

The fish in the rivers don't belong to us - I would say the otters probably got a better stake to that!
 

raf1870

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Where I fish at my local reservoir there are Herons and Cormorants who regulary frequent the water.

I have never seen any otters but I to blame the natural order of the food chain for my lack of fishing success would be pretty shallow of me.

On the plus side to see cormorants etc on the water to me is a good sign that there is actually fish in the water and the stocks are at a level that can sustain such wildlife.

My local reservoirs has probably been more over fished in recent years by anglers who are taking out the local pike population rather than by a bird or an otter.

Gradually nature recovers and the natural order is once again balanced. If that means I have to wait a few years to catch any kind of specimen fish then so be it.
 

richiekelly

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Am I the only one who feels we are amnipulated to be anti otter etc?

Dear Angling Times,



Despair at otter farce.



The Angling media have been very misleading on reporting the effects that otters and cormorants have on our nation’s fisheries. I have read G whiteheads letter (Defra: stupid or dishonest) and despair.

G Williams wants a ‘proper analysis to establish the impact of otters on wild fish populations’. Well, the science of predator/prey relationships is very well understood. The first point we need to remember is that fish are part of a complex food web where organisms are prey or food items. Otters will prey on fish and be very successful – only if there is lots of fish to feed their young. When they become too successful, i.e. the fish population declines, otter numbers will decline allowing fish populations to boom due to less predation. Natural systems are self sustaining and sort themselves out. There is often a debate about why a certain species of fish has managed to grow to extraordinary proportions, we call these specimen fish. Rivers and closed systems like lakes can only support a certain amount of biomass. With fewer fish surviving due to predation, the fish that survive actually thrive because there is less competition. These eat well, grow big and reproduce. The reason why rivers and natural lakes contain specimen fish is all down to predation. For example, many of us started fishing in lakes stuffed full of stunted roach or perch, often because misguided individuals removed the pike, a predator we have now grown to love and understand!

We have created an artificial world based on giving anglers ‘what they want’. Want to catch big carp? Build a lake and stock it with specimen fish. Wants to catch lots of fish? Build a lake and overstock it to obscene proportions so anyone can catch. Then factor in how tackle companies have capitalised on manufacturing tackle to enable anglers to fish these lakes with the right gear. I can see why the otter has come under the firing line. Of course you will be upset if you have had a carp that cost you £15 000 pounds to replace eaten. Of course you will be distraught because you have to keep replacing your expensive fish stocks in your commercial match lake. But to create an unnatural situation requiring the destruction of a predator that is indigenous to the UK should indicate where this problem lies. Even in rivers and natural lakes otters will destroy a desirable specimen – this is to be expected, though equally distressing. This is probably due to the otter population struggling, and remembers that the status quo will re-establish itself.

By all means build a dream lake or match pool, but it should be expected that otters will cause devastation in an artificially managed fishery. Why should otters be persecuted due the selfish requirements of the modern angler. We often talk about our sport being under treat from the ‘anti’s’. Well I am actually embarrassed to be associated with a sport that is being manipulated into taking an anti stance on otters and cormorants. There is a ray of light, G.Williams would like to see the government pressured into tackling existing water framework directive targets and giving protection to breeding fish. Well, I practically guarantee that if anglers united under the aims of improving water habitats you could expect full support from organisations like the Wildlife Trust, R.S.P.B, etc. on common ground issues. You would be surprised who the Norfolk Angling Conservation Association worked in collaboration with to achieve their goals in improving fishing on a declining river system.

im no expert on this sort of thing but agree nature will in the end bring about balance between predator and prey, that being the case why were the ea/ne not willing to allow time for this to happen instead of releasing otters back into the wild willy nilly,why do fish populations have to suffer while the balance is being restored? fish populations would have suffered less if less otters were released and both fish and otters were given time to adjust/recover there wouldnt have been so much uproar but once again anglers have been ignored by government departments,one partly funded by anglers.
 

captainbarnacles

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I say let nature take its course , too much interferance from man , Its said man will destoy his self and there prob right , but at my time of life i dont realy have to worry about it or the otters for that matter , I just want to enjoy what time i have left , so i,m going fishing on sunday no matter what , otters or not , people i my club keep complaining of herrons and cormerants ,ok there a niusance but if i see one i know theres bound to be fish there , all i ask is that they share a few with me Tight lines
 

chav professor

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im no expert on this sort of thing but agree nature will in the end bring about balance between predator and prey, that being the case why were the ea/ne not willing to allow time for this to happen instead of releasing otters back into the wild willy nilly,why do fish populations have to suffer while the balance is being restored? fish populations would have suffered less if less otters were released and both fish and otters were given time to adjust/recover there wouldnt have been so much uproar but once again anglers have been ignored by government departments,one partly funded by anglers.

I think the wider point that needs to be made is that wild fish populations don't need time to recover from otter/comorant predation. It could be argued that if otters were to be released and thrive independantly of human intervention - we need to focus on habitat restoration. This is were we as anglers need to pressurise the various government agencies. Instead of the fishing media blasting us with 'black death' - I think they mean comorants, and pictures of otters bearing their 'fangs of fish eating death'. the media could be selling a positive image of our sport. whats good for the R.S.P.B and their cormarants and English nature and their otters is also good for us fishermen and fisherladies. We are only ignored when we spout on ignorantly expecting knee jerk reactions to a problem of our own making.

---------- Post added at 09:39 ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 ----------

had to laugh - a google link came up advertising at the bottom of this page 'be an otter keeper for the day'. anyone interested the url link is Buckfast Butterfly Farm and Otter Sanctuary close to Dartmoor National Park Otters and Butterflies

perhaps the gov'ner (Graham) could treat me to a day looking after the little buggers for the day!!!
 

andreagrispi

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Your opinion is extremely logical and likely.

The top of the food chain will deminish once the prey has reduced to unacceptable levels - it's the process of life.

Difficult for us anglers to stomach though - seeing top fish being chewed up.
 

matthew barter

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I agree with a lot of what Chav Prof says but I think there are some other considerations.

I have been thinking about predation amongst fish and other natural enviroments for ages.
It might be that the population curve of a predator population follows a prey population. This does not always mean that there are so many predators that they eat so many prey fish that there own population numbers fall. It could be that in some cases the maximum numbers of a prey species is due to the amount of food and space available. As they consume or somehow adversly affect the enviroment then the numbers go down and therefore can't sustain as large a population of predators.

When you take into consideration that lots of predators have territories, this includes otters the effect they have on there prey might not be very large in the grand scheme. Although the size of territory is likely to be in some way proportional to the amount of prey present this is not going to be the only factor and so it is very likely that prey populations are not going to be seriously damaged by predation.

In small chalk streams in recent years people have been amazed at the size of the barbel. How did these fish get so big and why didn't it happen in the past? I think it's highley likely that they would have got this big in the past but being easy to corner in a relatively small pool they would have been easy fodder for otters and never have got to grow that size.

I don't agree with releasing masses of otters into small contained enviroments but I also don't think they are destroying my sport.

ps. there are lots of posotives about having apex predators in any enviroment.
 

matt1960

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I would like to ask one or two questions regarding previous points.

1. Does nature really balance itself, or is it more likely a see saw effect?

2. If there are barren stretches of a river, would the otter spread out more and increase its territory, or stay in the areas of more congregated fish and reduce its territory?
 

quickcedo

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Prof. No you most certainly are not the only one who feels that way!
I've been ranting on and on, on here for sometime now about this very subject.
If we want a viable river system then we need to put the work in. Create viable spawning sites and nursuries. The main problem as I see it is the year groups following these abnormally large fish that have been caught are just not there. Most rivers through the summer months show shoals of fry along the margins only to lose them all when the first flood comes.
Just to point out the EA resisted the reintroduction of Otters, but could not stop N.E only give advise which, from what I've read and seen was largely ignored.
With reguard natures balance, the see-saw effect mentioned IS natures balance. The problem we as fishermen face is when it's the wrong way, as it's becoming now we moan and moan but DO nothing. Most clubs no longer have river work parties because the insurance is too high, what a load of tosh. Sign a disclaimer and get on with it!
When was the last time YOU did anything, physically to help you're local river?
The downside to "natures balance" is the time it takes to adjust, I fear that at nearly 50 I'll not see the rivers back in our favour unless we do the work that so few are prepared to do.
 

matthew barter

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Matt, nature is always in flux. This can be for all sorts of reasons eg availabilty of food, the season or longer term weather conditions etc.
As for territory size, I'm not sure about otters in particular but all creatures must have enough food in there territory. This suggests that with an abundance the size of territory can be smaller. However the territory must also have shelter and access for reproduction etc for it to be a succesfull stable territory. This means that otters like other creatures will have a minimum size that they can comfortably live in and food availability is one but not the only factor.
 

waggy

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I'm with you on this Prof. Way too much emotional vitriol because large fish have been lost... the outpourings when that big barbel got done for by an otter was a bit much really, if you want a tame fish then keep it in the garden in a pond with a net over it. If you want wild fish, well they're going to have to survive in the big bad world and there's a chance something might eat you.

The fish in the rivers don't belong to us - I would say the otters probably got a better stake to that!
+1. It's up to 'fish farmers', which is what C&r fishery operators actually are, to find a way to either keep otters out or to accommodate them, not to kill them. Socially, we've evolved beyond that.
 

Ian Morgan

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I too would like to say that the furore about otters DOES NOT represent my view, which is basically...if otters eat our fish...unfortunate, but c'est la vie.

Dave Tipping's letter in this week's Angler's Mail is very sensible.

Also, just for an (?interesting) analogy....pigeon racers have individual birds that are worth large sums. When racing they can and are subject to predation by peregrine falcons. Would anyone support culling these?

Ian
 

Paul Boote

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Also, just for an (?interesting) analogy....pigeon racers have individual birds that are worth large sums. When racing they can and are subject to predation by peregrine falcons. Would anyone support culling these? Ian


They huffed and puffed much in the past, a few even tried raids on red-eyed raptors on their nests, then, as a young generation replaced the old diehards, the newbies asked themselves this question: "Do I want to, as the oldies did, cut my nose off just to spite my face?"

Better, I reckon, to ignore the sales-hungry and politically motivated tabloid rabble-rousers and listen to the rest of the human race, to your kids and wife.
 
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They huffed and puffed much in the past, a few even tried raids on red-eyed raptors on their nests, then, as a young generation replaced the old diehards, the newbies asked themselves this question: "Do I want to, as the oldies did, cut my nose off just to spite my face?"

Better, I reckon, to ignore the sales-hungry and politically motivated tabloid rabble-rousers and listen to the rest of the human race, to your kids and wife.

I'm not so sure pigeon-fanciers have moved on that much. Look HERE
 

Paul Boote

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I always try to be as charitable as possible, ****y: it allows backwoods knuckle-draggers to do their own hanging themselves...
 

thx1138

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I'm right with you prof... I'm sick of this barrage of misinformation and sensationalist journalism. To me, the objective is clearly to sell newspapers.

I apologise if I am not up with the celebrity gossip.. but someone showed me this weeks AT and the Star Letter about otters. Isnt 'G Whitehead' a.k.a 'Greg' off here, and isnt he a journalist for the paper?
If so, why are the paper giving star letter prizes to their own staff? :wh
 

chav professor

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The star prize is a Maver bait Bucket - Still waiting for my 'prize' from 4 months ago. Perhaps i shouldn't rise to the bait - but i do wonder when I read a lot of the cr@p in the angling press wether these people actually enjoy their fishing.

---------- Post added at 01:25 ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 ----------

Oh anglers calling for bans of methods they don't understand really gets me goat!! e.g. ban barbed hooks, pellets, keepnets, livebaits etc etc etc........
 
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