I agree 100%

whilst ever you have the media talking about biggest, most, heaviest, Bag-up, Baggin, Shedful, Haul 'em out and other such terms, you will have the mentality that this is right.

Let me give you a true example.

In 1995, Peter Stone caught, in June, a tench in an Oxford gravel pit that weighed 9lbs 14oz.

In August of that year I caught the same fish. We knew it was the same fish because of a very recognisable split in its anal fin and mark on it's head.

My fish weighed 8lbs 12 oz

Which was the better specimen?

We need to keep a close season on rivers at least. Although the dates should be modified somewhat. Make no mistake I have heard of anglers attempting to foul-hook big barbel in the early season on very famous parts of the Great Ouse.

Some anglers will go to any lengths to make a name for themselves.

But the angling media has created this. Big is best. I have even read cases of people being decribed as the greatest barbel angler alive because they caught a certain named fish more than once, yet the number of barbel they have caught in their lives can be counted on one hand.

Well said, Steve; Ron likewise.

We can't blame the angling Press, though - the Press merely reflects angling standards, it doesn't create those standards.

Many years ago - in my first carp book (1968), I wrote "neither merit nor enjoyment can be measured in pounds and ounces." I believed it then, and I still believe it now. Whether those who think likewise are now in a minority, I don't know, but certainly a significant number of anglers - some influential ones, too - seem wedded to the notion that weight is all that matters. In my view, such a mind-set is simplistic and superficial. Sad, too.

I don't blame the media one little bit, I agree totally with Jim in that they reflect anglers attitudes. I don't know when this craze for 'the biggest' started, maybe even with Walker and Clarissa, through Walkers writings, but this attitude is peculiar only to specimen hunters.

Your average 'pleasure fisherman' (I'm one of them) is interested only in catching fish and rarely has the devotion needed to catch very big fish, though he may by accident. Matchmen aspire to quantity not quality so they can't be blamed either. No this lies fairly and squarely on the specimen hunters shoulders.

Let's not get confused here.

There's nothing wrong at all in chasing the biggest fish if that's what turns you on. What's wrong is the attitude that says it's the only route to enjoyment.

Every single branch of angling has a faction that thinks their way is the only way to go.

You have a very good point there Graham.

**** Walker, the doyen of the modern specimen hunting scene, wrote in despair about the attitude that had crept into the specialist angling world. About how many anglers feel cheated if they are not catching fish on a regular basis that are as big as those reported in the press.

Walker never did rate as a great feat of angling, the 44lb carp he caught from Redmire.

In later years he came to worry tremendously about the over-propogation of carp at the expense of other species.

He detested the cult syndrome that grew out of carp fishing.

But as Graham M says there is nothing wrong with chasing the biggest species. I've done a bit of it in my life too.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with specimen hunting in itself Graham, just that it was only specimen hunters that portray this attitude.

I have every admiration for these guys, Andy Nellist is a case in point and having spent a few hours with him on the bank I have nothing but praise for him, in fact having listened to him I think he knows more about the fish he's after than the fish themselves. Wonderful dedication that I couldn't even begin to aspire to and I daresay there are many more like him too.

Andy is a genuinly talented and ethusiastic angler who deserves all the fish he catches.

However there are those who will stop at nothing to cut corners in order to make a name.

And that includes all sorts of devious practices.

Well said Steve.

I sometimes wondered if I was the only angler in the country who despairs at some of the paths angling has followed in recent years but your articles and those I've published recently appears to have awoken a sleeping giant.

It does seem that we are not alone with our concerns and long may it continue.

I'm sure I read Walker somewhere writing that to be a specimen hunter you have only to set out with the aim of catching larger than average fish of a certain species in a certain venue.
Therefore, a 5lb 8oz Wellend chub is probably a better achievement than capturing a 7lb specimen from Throop (and no I've never caught one that big - not for want of trying!). Problem is, when it comes to the reporting of specimen fish, 5lb 8oz chub don't sell many papers/magazines!
**** had the right of it though. Catching the biggest fish of a certain species in your local fishery makes you a specimen hunter, and a good one (providing you set out with that as your aim. If you didn't, it makes you a jammy bugger!). A great writer in my opinion. Up there with Yates and Sheringham.
As for those with the elitist attitude, you can always feel sorry for them. A fish is just a fish at the end of the day. Better to enjoy the fight and experience the deep satisfaction of a hard target achieved than whore yourself all over the place in an attempt to prove how good you are. None of the best anglers ever feel the need to blow their own trumpet!

What an unusual thread this is.
We are agreeing on the same things for once.
Even more unusual is the fact that these same comments have been posted on other threads over recent times, and we are at loggerheads over them.

It's not just about being a sucessful specimen hunter Greg, it's about being a succesfull specimen catcher.

There are scores of anglers in this country who have had a bit of luck or have been able to get on a few of the going waters at the right time. They have made names for themselves.

Yet there are thousands of really good anglers who fish local waters that can never produce what are considered to be specimens in this day and age. And these people catch lots and lots of good fish. Some of them are great anglers make no mistake. They can teach us all a great deal.

Yet they would never make the front page of the press because apparently no-one wants to know about a 5 lb tench from the Warping drain, a 4 lb chub from the Don or a 2 lb wild brownie from a little Derbyshire rain fed stream.

well said steve and ron.far too many of todays so called specimen anglers rate their success on the amount of "20s" or "30s" and even "40s"(carp,pike) or the amount of double figure tench,barbel etc they have caught,the smaller specimens of their chosen quarry "don`t count"
i have done all sorts of angling over the past 30 years or so,from roach fishing to wreck fishing and have been LUCKY enough to have caught some big fish of various species.i am of the opinion that if you target a species and manage to hook and land them properly,then you can consider it a success,how big the fish is that picks up your bait is where the luck comes in.
i know a few good pike anglers that have caught very few 20lb plus fish,at the same time,i know of complete numpties that have the money to spend a lot of time on trout waters and caught "30s" and consider themselves better than anyone else.a prime example happened on durleigh reservoir in the late 90s,it was stocked over a 4 year period with numerous 20lb plus pike,one angler was lucky enough to catch 3 of these 20s in a day.he asked a good mate of mine,"do you know if anyone else has caught 3 twenties in a day?",my mate said no he hadn`t.the reply?"i must be the best pike angler in somerset then"!the same bloke said to another mate of mine,who had caught a 29lb 15oz pike from chew,"hard luck mate,another ounce and it would have been a 30".whether it weighed 29lb 15oz or 30lbs,in my view it`s still the same fish and a fish of a lifetime.i would add that the bloke who thought that an ounce under 30 was bad luck,seems only to fish known big fish waters and trout reservoirs,you never see him on a river or drain etc as a:he doesn`t seem to want to put effort in catching pike under 20lbs,b:he doesn`t know where to start.it was also rumoured that he once said,when i have caught ten 30lb pike i will give up piking as i have made a name for myself,i can think of more than one name for him.he`s had two so far and i hope that he catches another 8 this winter!
then we have all the so called "names"who have cheated,stroke pulled and poached their way to "fame"and then boasted of their successes and methods in mag articles and books,this leads the less intelligent ones among us,and newcomers in angling to believe that you have to cheat,poach and lie to catch big fish and if you don`t catch huge specimens every year you are a failure,they`ll go and fish well known hotspots on "going" waters and when the success(big fish)drops,the water is "finished"and they move on to the next water that they have heard of.looking for different areas on these waters never enters their heads!
it is unfortunate that many of todays young carp anglers think that the only way to catch big carp,is to have all the gear,a sackful of boilies to chuck in and sit behind bite alarms on waters that hold good fish(usually stillwaters).if you tell them that you stalked a 12lb common on the local canal\river,they say,"i don`t like fishing those waters,the fish arent big enough and you can`t night fish!a couple of my mates travel to scotland regularly,fishing various waters and catching big fish,but they don`t consider big fish to be the be all and end all of their hobby,they treat good catches as a bonus.
well i`ll just carry on doing what i do,and enjoy my fishing,i`m not a "name" and i don`t want to be.successful angling is about enjoying yourself and catching your chosen species,when a biggie comes along it`s a bonus.i don`t measure my success by playing the numbers game.

Lets face it guys, we all know good anglers, there are even GREAT anglers who post on this site, and god bless them them they even give little bits of info away, but how many anglers are we realy looking at when it comes to (making a name)(chasing fish)(cheating to win cups) and all that sort of stuff????? Its not that many, cos its the same old faces that keep appearing in the rags.......Is'nt it?

Just ignore them and instead enjoy the fact that you can chat to the likes of Gibbinson, Marsden and Roto.

DOH

The seeking of big fish - or even the biggest fish, for that matter - is not the problem. The problem is that it has led to a distortion of values whereby weight is all that matters. This in turn has led to the pursuit of individual fish that have already been caught too often (don't ask me to define "too often" - that's another can of worms!), or the deliberate pursuit of fish when their weight is enhanced by spawn (tench, particularly, fall into this category).

Ultimately - to a degree, anyway - some distorted aspects of modern angling will right themselves - look how the angling Press have lost interest in oversized rainbow trout. I suspect the same thing will happen with carp - after all, how many of the big carp reported in the Press are home-grown? These are dubious experiments in animal husbandry and have little to do with angling.

It'll be a great day for angling when the big fish at any cost attitude is seen for what it is by the majority. And although I agree with Jim that the press doesn't set the standards I do believe they can have a greater influence in changing those standards should they want to.

The reality is that catching big fish is not, and never has been, a true measure of angling skill, not in its own right, but it is still portrayed as such far too often. I won't go into what I consider the best measure of angling skill as that needs its own thread.

Point taken Ron. 'Hunter' sounds a bit too much like 'chaser' which is essentially the problem that leads to the capture of the same, tired old specimens. 'Catcher' is definitely more apt.
And yes, that is what I'm driving at. Catching a specimen in your own water by design is good angling and there is so much of it going on that you never hear about.
But I agree with Jim. It's not a problem of pounds and ounces as people so often mention. It's horses for courses there. If you're fascinated by big fish (in any waters, not necessarily the circuit ones) then that's fine so long as you don't incessantly ram it down other peoples' throats. If you want to catch nets of silvers that's great too. Or nets full to bursting with carp. Angling is such a great sport because it can be so many things to so many people. It's unfortunate that some lose sight of that, thinking their way is the only way.
I like to try and catch big fish but am not particularly good at it. In truth I'm probably just your average pleasure angler. I love being on the bank by myself or in good company.

There is something in my psyche that keeps telling me that it is wrong to keep on trying to catch very large fish that have been caught many times previously.

As Jim says, such an idea could open up all sorts of cans of worms.

So we catch a fish and it beats the record. There is something in me that keeps telling me that that is enough and maybe we should leave the fish alone.

Or maybe we should have it stuffed!!!

Then there is what I call the definition of a specimen fish.

Some of the fish that have broken records in the past have been so grossly overweight that are they truly what we could consider to be specimens?

I certainly would not rate the heaviest person who ever lived as a perfect specimen of humanity.

It's not so very long ago in the history of angling that we would have had such a fish stuffed. After all it's only ONE fish and there are plenty to replace it.

"These are dubious experiments in animal husbandry and have little to do with angling."

That is the best description I've heard of some of the goings-on in the modern carp scene! I wonder what response you'd get if you posted that on certain carp forums!

Robin

Casing fish is certainly a dying (if not completely dead) art. Funny how attitudes change. I know a game angling friend of my father who can only justify his angling by the taking of his catch for food. The very idea of returning fish horrifies him! He feels catching fish only to release them is unjustifiable. Such are the widely varied attitudes within angling and therein lies the problems of projecting a single, unified voice across the whole sport.
Conservation is the key. I guess that casing coarse fish is unacceptable in today's society. Remember that guy a few years ago who caught and killed a brace of big Irish rudd so that he could get them mounted? Everyone went mental!
But just think of all those big chub, roach and barbel caught from the Thames and the Avon that even now reside in pubs close to those hallowed waters. Part of angling history.
These days you have to get someone to paint you a painting or carve and paint you a replica.