Mr. Angry 4, Set the World To Rights

Hope you're feeling better Bob and that quacks are sorting you out.
Where should the press stand? Should barbel be retained? Lobby the EA to move the closed season? Targeting gravid fish? Christ, looks like it's all there and you've stired up a real hornets' nest.
Firstly, ban night fishing on peg 1 at Collingham if it isn't already. Then sell by advanced booking, limiting the number of times an angler can fish it in the year. Pain, but the only way to give the fish a break.
Barbel aren't made of bone china. They can be retained, as Keith Arthur argues, in a properly staked net, but only a bare handful and only one if a really good specimen. This goes against the SAA's Code of Conduct (which should be most anglers' bible) and is one of the few things in that great document that I don't agree with.
AT simply doesn't believe barbel should be elevated above any other species. When it comes to returning them it takes as long as it takes. I personally don't condone putting loads of them in an inappropriate keep net, a situattion that the Trent proves isn't good for them.
As for changing the closed season, it isn't going to happen. The present closed season 'protects most of the fish, most of the time' (Daffyd Evans) and, as a result, is very unlikely to be changed. Anglers need to exercise restraint and common sense.
I think, tench excepted, most anglers (including specimen hunters) don't deliberately target fish that are on the eve of spawning. Tench have always been caught full of spawn because they're usually still full come the start of the season. And has anyone anywhere got any incontravertible proof that catching gravid fish is that bad for them? It probably doesn't help with regards successful spawning but I sincerely doubt it does fish much harm, they're in their best condition after all. Probably worse to target them immediately post spawning.
Just some thoughts...
Get well soon.

Like CK I hope you're on the mend Bob.

Once again I find myself agreeing with much of what you write, with the exception of your comments about pike fly fishing, which I am guessing you haven't experienced first-hand yet?

Excitingly under-gunned tackle? Far from it, a decent pike flyfishing outfit has some serious backbone to it and is well capable of dealing quickly and effectively with pretty well any pike that swims in UK waters, so your other comment about it taking longer to land them doesn't really apply either.

If the tackle required was that unsuitable can you imagine the uproar it would cause? Akin to someone recommending a 2lb hooklength and a match rod for specimen Barbel/Carp fishing I would guess.........

I posted this on another thread in April 2004:

"As the eggs ripen in fish immediately before spawning they hydrate (take on water) and consequently the fish get fatter and weigh more.

Spawnbound is a term that is applied to fish that appear to have fully hydrated their eggs but are for some reason unable to shed them. This seems to occur in waters where there are very limited numbers of the species of fish concerned.

The closed season was introduced in an era when fish were taken for the pot and thus it was necessary to stop fishing from taking place at spawning time when the fish were shoaled up tightly. Later when we all stopped keeping our catches the closed season was kept to "protect" spawning fish. In that it totally fails as most spawning takes place outside 15th March to 15th June and the closed season creates artificail pressure in waters in March and June.
Fish are at their best condition of the year immediately before they spawn. They need to be because spawning saps them of a huge amount of energy and they are in their worst condition of the year immediately after.

The reality is that it is best to fish for fish until they spawn and then leave them well alone to recover from the rigours of spawning. It is spent fish of any species that are the ones that need protecting."

....and yesterday i posted this on another thread:

"On a personal level fishing for big fish happens to float my boat but I would get no pleasure from chasing known fish or targeting spawning or freshly spawned fish.

Having read this thread I had a look through my pb list and apart from Tench none were caught within two months of spawning e.g. Bream 28th September 2003, Perch 1st August 2000, Chub 14th March 2003 etc.

With Tench I prefer to fish for them before they spawn because that is when they are in their best condition. Once spawning begins i move onto other things and that has meant that my pb is relatively low considering the number of big tench i have had. I can live happily with that.

As I stated my pb for Tench was the only one that came within two months of the species spawning. In fact it came right at the end of a tench campaign and was ready to spawn... on 19th June 2003. In the days of a close season that would have been right at the start of the season and I would have expected 15-20 anglers to be on the bank as it was there were just 3 and within a couple of days no-one was fishing the water for tench.

Close seasons don't protect fish unlike well informed ethical anglers. Such anglers realise that fishing is even more enjoyable when you don't take risks with vulnerable fish and don't interfere with spawning fish."

I agree with much of what Bob says but with regards to spawning fish he has missed the point. We should seek to protect fish when they are vulnerable. That means we shouldn't interfere with their spawning and we should be careful with them when they are weak i.e. immediatley after spawning or when disolved oxygen levels are low. Indeed i stop fishing for them when they start spawning and I don't fish anywhere near where they spawn.

Tench are not vulnerable just because they are carrying extra weight in the form of water that is hybdrating their eggs. Unlike the situtation which prompted Bob's article lots of Tench do not go belly up in May and June after being caught.

I agree also with most of Bob's points.
I do however find it personally impossible to justify the use of keep nets for any type of fish. I see no need to retain them for any reason especially just so the 'light is right' for a photograph. Use a bloody flash gun for christ's sake.
Put the fantastic creatures straight back as quickly as possible and allow them their freedom.
And anyone who can't spend the time and effort ensuring a fish is strong enought to swim away on it's return should not be allowed anywhere near water. I have spent close on 15 minutes before now on my stomach in a particularly uncomfortable position nursing a pike in the flow of the river. I had had to remove a mess of a rig from his mouth that someone else had lost or simply just cut off.
I would estimate under usual circumstances that 99% of the fish I catch are back in the water within 1 minute and always supported if neccesary until they can swim strongly.

Thanks one and all for your sentiments and early replies.

I have suggested somewhere that if Collingham weir and say 5 pegs below was closed to all fishing it would have an incredible impact on fry propagation and consequently fry survival that would ultimately benefit and improve fishing on the whole of the tidal river. It is most unlikely to happen because it would require determined policing.

The compromise, as I see it is to shut those pegs and allow two anglers to fish for 24 hours, no more, each week, for which the going rate would be ?50 each, bookings in advance only. People would pay.

Just because the EA says it is not for turning today doesn't mean they should not be lobbied by parties with a vested interested. They've changed their minds in the past over the closed season and there's no certainty that they won't in the future. Much depends on where the lobby comes from and the political support it receives.

I fully agree that barbel should not be elevated above other species unlike say pike where it's quite acceptable to kill a roach and use it as bait to catch a pike... Don't go there. That's perhaps for another day.

However, I put it to you that more barbel die as a direct result of capture and poor handling than any other species we fish for regularly and your paper could influence a change in that. Care and handling is paramount and editorials suggesting it's okay to ram 50lb of them in a net stand need to be challenged.

A mishandled barbel doesn't "get over it".

Whether targeting gravid fish actually harms them is not the issue. Successful spawning is. Fish leaking milt or eggs after capture cannot be seen as good whichever way you spin it.

Hands up, no, I haven't fished for pike with flies - can't see the point to tell the truth - but I do know some good anglers who do and I'm told they don't half hang on. I have seen hooray Henry doing a bit at Chew on the telly and they seemed to, er, 'hang on' for quite a while.

I didn't draw the analogy with a certain columnist who seems to think it's okay to target double figure barbel on gossamer lines, nor did I suggest that the comparison is a true reflection.

Winter, 3lb test curve rods, versus spring, a fly rod, certainly sounds to me like one is much more likely to boss the fish quickly. Take it you're in the Derek camp and Des should keep his nose out?

Andy, it's refreshing to hear your pb's came so far away from the acknowledged spawning times and you put forward a lucid argument from your personal perspective but I must take issue with your comment "Close seasons don't protect fish unlike well informed ethical anglers".

I refer back to my argument and the quotes taken directly from the pens of much more successful big fish anglers than I. Surely you are not suggesting that these are not well informed ethical anglers...

Bob ,I understand why you don`t like committees`s ,closed shop ,job for the boy`s ,perk`s ect but our club is run by one man and although in the main he does a good job ,he`s word is law and if you don`t like it then you can do the other thing becouse he knows he can replace you no problem ,there is no redress ,no apeal and the goalposts have been known to move from time to time ,at least with a committee you may have a small chance of putting your veiw forward and voteing some of the tosser`s out .
All the best and get well soon .

Keep 'em coming Bob! It makes me sick to see pictures of spawn-filled fish held by grinning captors who think they have achieved something clever.
I read an article on Bawburgh Lakes listing all the fantastic bream caught there - most were caught in April, May & June, so, allowing for the fact that half of June falls in the old Close Season, the vast majority of the bream captures that have made this fishery's reputation involved spawning/spawn-filled fish
"CAT" is a good mag., but I refuse to buy it as it glorifies fishing for spawning fish. Several "names" write for this mag., & a kind of code has evolved to get round the fact that these people are chasing spawning fish - fishing in Spring is now called "Early-season fishing" - no, it's not, it's "Spawning Season fishing" & no "new-speak" is going to change that. What really made me sick was reading how this "name" arrived at the lakes (in Spring)to find the bream had already spawned...& went home disappointed. Never mind, he would be back next year - BEFORE they'd spawned. He really deserves a "record" fish, doesn't he? Luckily, not all anglers are so blinded by their own egos. When the first bloated "record" carp was caught in the former Close Season, I criticised the capture in "Carpworld". Of course, the angling press has a vested interest in all-year-round angling, so not surprisingly objectors were derided. However, it's not just anglers' opinions that count - what about those of the Great British Public? We are supposed to value their goodwill, yet pictures of bloated spawn-filled carp are hardly the best way to go about this...? A female (non-angler) friend described this capture as "like mugging a pregnant woman" & I had no defence to offer. All other field sports involving the pursuit of living creatures have a Close Season - EXCEPT ANGLING.

I sometimes think I could be a very effective anti-angling campaigner if I wanted - WE MAKE IT SO EASY.

Look how angling has changed over 10 years -purpose-dug "puddles" crammed with fish, "ton-up" bags of carp crammed into keepnets, endless repeat captures of carp stocked at artificially high weights in so-called "specimen" commercial waters, stillwater barbel, exotic species, etc. How can we defend all these abuses?

The answer is WE CAN'T. But actually glorifying the pursuit of spawning fish can only make things worse. Those anglers who feel they have to satisfy their egos by catching fish in Spring could at least have a little humility and acknowledge that the capture would not have been possible 10 years ago, & has no relevance to angling history.

At least river fish are safe - unless the glory-seekers get their way: to end with, let me mention another article in CAT, in which the same "name" states that the Close Season should be abolished on rivers because: It deprives anglers of sport just as the fish are going on the feed...and: (get this!)it deprives the fish of much-needed food just as they are going on the feed....!So, in his opinion, we should fish rivers all year on humanitarian grounds - otherwise how would the poor fish survive the Close Season...? (hang on, isn't that what they've been doing for millions of years without our help.....? DERRRRH!

Why can't these people be honest for a change? - they want to catch bigger fish to boost their own egos - and their wallets - and if it means targeting spawning fish then that's what they'll do...never mind the fishes' welfare or the fact that less experienced anglers will want to do the same thing, with the obvious result that many more fish will suffer due to being caught during spawning. Not everyone is an expert fish-handler; have they thought what the effect of year-round river fishing would be? Dying barbel drifting down from the spawning grounds...is this the price these people are willing to pay?

Another excellent read Bob.

The clubs should have seen it coming!
I was talking to the head bailiff of??? yeh, sod it! The Bristol, Bath & Wiltshire Amalgamated Anglers club. I met him on the Avon and got chatting. We talked about two stretches of the river, then all he wanted to bang on about was the lake fishing available on the tab!
He told me how they have spent tens of thousands of pounds on one lake, is this an attempt to fight back at the commercials? I was thinking. Unfortunately he had nabbed me for not carrying my tab (genuine mistake, honest guv!) so I had to bite my tongue! I wish I didn't now!
The club has abandoned, seemingly, any responsibility for the up-keep of their rivers, but spent thousands on one lake.
Purpose built platforms, disabled access, which is a legal requirement anyway! Car parking facilities and plans for toilets to be installed, thats great, but what about their rivers?
Match angling is virtually non-existent nowadays on the river, in its hey day there were platforms on the river, but they have gone, along with the anglers to the commercials.
My Dad still loves to go fishing, but his eyesight is getting very bad. He wants to fish the river where I go, but the banks are treacherous due to the neglect of the "club"! So I try my best to put him off and go to another venue, but he is adamant he is going to fish my venue, I am worried sick he will fall in.

Anyway, lets see if this club is lurking around and wants to give me a reply!
I hope so! Feel free to comment Mr.P or Mr.M.

Get well soon Bob, you've started a bit of a fight back going on here, well done mate.

Oh! Spawning fish, no way! Ever!

Steve.

Just pulling a few quotes:

"Have I mentioned that I have precious little time for committees?"
Then who would run our clubs, or would you prefer a fishing world of commercial rivers or expensive syndicates? With one stroke you would kill off river fishing if the clubs didn't exist. Ever thought of going on a committee and fighting from the inside, get like minded people talking sense at last? Or does the "little time" mean that you would rather be fishing and merely complain about others peoples willingness to offer their time?

"It?s time for change guys. Let?s make it happen." re close season.
Why mess with times? Is it too difficult to get ones mind around "No fishing with lures or deadbaits from February through April - No fishing with any bait other that lures and deadbaits May through July". That surely would protect pike, perch, barbel, chub, and heaven knows how many other species.

"It was normal in those times to pull out a net and see dozens of fish strung up by the barbs on their dorsal fins"
Only one comment, isn't the picture of the barbel stuck in a - landing - net?

"a selection of leading anglers"
To include who exactly? What defines a leading angler? I would just like to be clear as to whether it would include someone such as myself, or do I need to be a magazien journalist, or a paid consultant, to have a string of speciment catches behind ones name. Or is "leading angler" just another elitist expression used to imply that the remainder of us are beneath that level?

Not saying I disagree with a lot of this, though. Get well soon!

Bob, you're right that almost all clubs have had their head in the sand while 'business' minded anglers have established commercial fisheries to the point where they are so dominant as to have changed the face of angling.

But what could the clubs do?

If you put your best man in charge you turn the committee from a democracy to a dictatorship. That's definately not good long term

Often, a committe is made up of people who are the suckers who'll turn up. The ones who'll put the time in.

They may not be as good at business as the board of Microsoft but they're the only option on offer and they often mean well.

You might be right about the positive effects of removing the fishing from the first few pegs below the weir at Collingham but I think the biggest benefits would be made by educating anglers.

Matchmen need to be put under pressure to stake out their nets properly and adopt good weighing in procedures. Maybe the NFA could introduce a scheme where a licence was required to hold a match. The licence would be given to those who has attended a fish handling course. I'd like to see the keepnet code included in the rules so a competitor could be disqualified if they failed to adhere to the rules.

Specialist and pleasure anglers need to be made aware of the danger of tether rigs. Adam and I recovered a rig with a swivel tied either side of a running lead on Saturday night. I'd like to see more clubs make unhooking mats compulsory on some stretches. Yes the fish can be unhooked in the water while still in thenet, but many are dragged up the bank and placed on the floor.

Regarding the close season I have shifted my opinion this year to be more in favour of a close season - and changing the dates too.

Ideally I'd like to see each club be allowed to cloase their waters at their own discretion but it's not feasible. Many waters aren't controlled at all and clubs have all on as it is without having to police the close season.

For the fishes sake it seems it might be an idea to extend the close season in late mid July but I have to admit I really don't want to miss out on that much fishing. Can you imagine how certain shops and manufacturers would be effected by an extended close season?

I'm still unsure of what I want here, but sensible discussion is a good thing.

Paul - regarding keepnets.

I think it's ok to use keepnets when;

1. Match Fishing

2. When catching ceratin species (such as Chub) that you don't want to immediately return in case they spook the other fish.

3. If you catch a mixed bag of fish and you don't retain and weigh them you're just guessing what you've caught. That's fine for some, but I like to measure my catches. It allows me to monitor how I've done, how my tactics on that day have worked, or how a venue is fishing. Many people guess the weights of what they catch and many people end up deceiving themselves and others.

4. If I ever caught a record, or even a river record I would consider retaining to fish while I sorted out photos, witness and maybe rang the angling press. If nobody did this the angling papers would be devoid of many of the current images and reports we see every week.

I have used keepnets extensively in the past (rarely nowadays, because of theh types of fish I fish for) and I'm happy knowing I can retain, weigh, sometimes photograph, release a bag of fish and watch them swim off in the fullest of health.

I wouldn't do it with Barbel, or decent sized Carp because I have no desire.

"Can you imagine how certain shops and manufacturers would be effected by an extended close season?"

Matt down South (Bristol) I don't believe they would be affected at all, if you compare the number of anglers fishing rivers to commercials there is no contest!

I pre-baited some swims for four days on the river, I didn't see a single angler all week! On the weekend I saw two!
This is a stretch that is regularly featured in A.T. The rivers just don't get fished, what a waste, good news for me though!

Maybe Collingham angling club should make it members only fishing in the hotspots, I wouldnt like to be the member of a club and be unable to fish a "prestige" water because it is permanently booked out to day ticket users.

I dont personally see a place in pleasure fishing for the use of keepnets as a holding pen for loads of fish just to be just tipped out into the water at the end of the session.

Do carp get pregnant? you can fish for them 24hrs a day 365 days a year yet no one seems to have any concerns about enforcing a close season for them, yet here we are trying to enforce another two months onto the close season for river fish. I am now totally bewildered by these articles as to when and where I can now safely fish for different species of fish. I cant now fish for tench, pike,bream or Barbel for fear of upsetting the ecosystem, what about the other fish in the rivers/lakes are they to lowly to be considered in the scheme of things, How do people know these exact gestation periods of the fish,where can I find out these dates as I certainly dont want to intentionally distress pregnant fish. I would have thought it would have been down to local conditions and weather conditions just as birds know when the prime time is for nesting, after all you wouldnt say sparrows nest between 10 march and 20 may so therefore do not cut your hedges between those dates? I have caught over 20 barbel this season and I havent had any fish spraying milt over me and all fish have been returned and nursed before release so is the handling of pregnant fish as widespread as is surmised.

Tom, that's pretty much how I felt before this season started but have seen a few dead Barbel, a few floating downstream, belly up, having caught many with sores, a couple spilling milt and having had to nurse one for an hour and a half my mind is changing.

I must admit it's all very confusing though and as Bob pointed out in a previous Mr Angry, if we take it too far we'd ban hooks!

It's all a matter of where we draw the line and I'm still not quite sure where that should be.

I would rather it was disussed sensibly than the typical ranting opinion with no facts on offer than normally passes for debate.

I am with you there Matt on the debate, but I feel thunder on the horizon. I hope people dont read my post and feel that I am trying to start a flame war or anything, but I do feel that there is a lot of conflicting debate around about when you can or cannot fish for certain species of fish, I think the angling press do a lot towards this misunderstanding by the poorly mistimed, out of season articles designed to stir the blood up about different species, which bob did highlight in his 4th essay. I wouldnt mind seeing an article written about the time frames when it would be sensible to fish for different species, having fished for a few years and I am still rather befuddled by it all, I am sure there are a lot more people on the site who are not so sure themselves. In fact I think it wouldnt harm the EA to publish a set of guidelines stating these facts as they are the people with the facilities to give an accurate outline. I for one fancied doing a bit of pike fishing with deadbaits on sunday and was villified by my mate an avid pike angler, I actually thought quite innocently that the pike had now finished breeding and were ok to fish for. I am all for the welfare of any fish and if I was convinced that the wellbeing of fish meant having a fishing season of six months then I would happily go along with it.

Bob - menat to say - here's another "Committee" related saying -

Committees are bodies that keep minutes and waste hours.

Brilliant Woody.

Hate to say this but I'm half way through writing Part 5 after which I intend to retire! Unless someone winds me up...

Bad committees are worse than autocratic rulers. At least the latter has a vision.

Had the leading clubs in this country grasped the commercial nettle they would have had the funds to keep the rivers. Sadly their current pauper status means any half decent stretch of river is vulnerable to syndicates.

And another thing that niggles me. Why is it that virtually every time a club decides to include 'Piscatorial' in it's name it turns out to be bombastic, autocratic, etc.

And as for those clubs who impose rules such as, you have to have a Nottingham post code to even apply for a ticket, I would have no truck with that if we could ban those members from fishing outside their own postcode. Sauce for the goose...

You're a bit hard on committees, Bob. Yes, some are misguided; some are incompetent. Some, however, do an excellent job. As angling-club members, we get the committees we deserve - if we're apathetic and don't attend meetings, we are hardly in a position to complain if the "wrong" people get elected.