Milks V Meals.....

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Frothey

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A thread on another site got me thinking....

If money was no object, and all things being equal, would a decent milk protein bait out fish a fishmeal one?

did we go away from the milks too quickly, or do todays DECENT fishmeals combine the best of both worlds?

if we're starting to run out of fishmeals, apart from the meat products we're going to have to look at alternatives....ah, back to the days of carrying 10 flasks with us for an overnighter!
 
Murray Rogers

Murray Rogers

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I still believe that the fish go for the natural scent of the bait in preference to any additives, thats as long as its a good bait of course. Milk based, Fish based, Bone Blood based, any mixture???? etc, if it is acceptable to them then why add anything else?. I know people want to put a LABEL on their bait by the way of SCENT so that it is special to them, but I strongley believe that by adding this LABEL has a detremental affect on what is already a good bait.

Didn't Fred Wilton say that "If you can smell the attracter in the bait, then you've got too much in it"?.
 
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Frothey

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but fish "smell" differently to us dont they? milks smell very bland, but they love them

wilton statement was maybe true for long term food baits, but what about attractor baits? and where does that leave the tutti?!

was part of the problem with protein bait there limited lifespan - fine for overnighters, but you had to make bait whilst on a session (unless you had a freezer!)
 
Murray Rogers

Murray Rogers

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Has anyone tried the Tutti without the Tutti in it?

Why does Bread keep catching without any added stuff?, is it the natural smell of Yeast maybe?

All living things must give off some sort of smell and I have to assume that it is natural,,and the fish love it. Maybe It's Enzymes???????
 
Murray Rogers

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Back to the original question Froth...

If money was no question,,,, how about chopped Lobs?, lots of them, gallons of them?

I bet you would clean up.
 
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Frothey

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bread....yeast....salt.....but is it the yeast or the reaction of the yeast that they like?

all living things give off amino's, enzymes, proteins (in waste), salts, esters....loads of things. but which ones are the attractive ones? apart from mr carp, who knows?

chopped lobs and casters.....yummmmmmmmmmmm!! but is the problem that they arent selective enough, all those bloody nuisance fish ;)
 
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William Spencer

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interesting point you've bought up frothey.how you doin' anyways?
right back to your point.i got a couple of recipes from nutrabaits that suggests a long term hnv mix.for the first third of the year the mix is mainly bird seed based,the second third it's 50 50 bird seed/milk protein and the third mix is full milk protein.the recipe does state that the mix should entice more fish after fishmeals have been extensively used on a paticular water.i am thinking of adopting this mix for next season as i'm having a bit too much fun with the source this year.the only down side is like you say cost.prebaiting would be a nightmare.then again.......i could lose another finger or two....hehehehe
 
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ByNasty

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I've contemplated milks a few times for both my carp/tenching and my barbel/chubbing but I didn't realise the had such a short life, so I'll probably end up going the opposite way and use shelf lifes. What are tutti's based on? Are the a birdfood mix? The theory of nutritional recognition intrigues me but one of the questions in my head is that if carp recognise a nutritional value of a food source why do they go loopy for tigers which supposedly have jack all in the way of nutritional value? Could it not just be that the carp/barbel are mad keen on the creamy smell/taste or whatever it is the fish uses to recognise the bait and that this is what they get hooked on, same way as I can get hooked on chilli heatwave dorito's even though they are crap for me? Has any hard scientific research been done on this rather than just observation and hypothesising by some extremely good anglers?
 
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ByNasty

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I've just re-read my post and realised I contributed nothing to Frothey's original questions other than to ask a load more questions of my own!Ooops!
Does anyone have an idea of the nutritional value (I guess we're talking protien?) of one of the top quality fishmeal based baits compared to a good milk or a 50/50 milk birdfood. Surely If the nutritional theory is correct a plain fishmeal with no flavouring and a similar value should fish virtually the same if applied the same way?
 
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Frothey

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will - fine ta. the thing to bear in mind with Hi-Nu-Val (if thats what it is) is that it was origionally meant to be used with all the "addits" as well - turning an expensive bait into a REALLY expensive bait!

bynasty - the lifespan of milks is in its usefull life - most recommend using within 12 hrs of coming out of the freezer - rather than how long before they blow

protein isnt the be all and end all - thats why there was high protein baits and high nutrition baits. carp cant utilise all the protein anyway so it was wasted. better to have "mid" protein of say 50%, with some carbohydrates and fats - its more convertible - "nutritious"

i dont think theres anything special in tutti's base mix - they probably use the same for a couple of baits - i reckon, like tigers and peanuts, they just like the taste
 
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ByNasty

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Frothey, I meant short life as in needing to be used quickly I just didn't phrase it well. As for blowing, aren't milks meant to get better the longer you use them, eventually creating a preoccupation where the fish will actively seek them out? Or is this a bit of good bait propaganda?
Isn't the majority of a milk baits nutritional value derived from the protein content and if so wouldn't that mean that it is the more balanced fishmeals that are actually the better bait as the fish can make more use of their content?
 
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ByNasty

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Also how do birdfood based baits staqck up in the nutritional debate? They must have decent nutritional value for them to be a balanced feed for birds.
 
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Frothey

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birds have a different metabolism / dietary requirement (and stomach!) to fish though - birds are mainly high energy, so a lot of the foods are high in carbohydrates and fats (sweeping statement)

i dont think that they can necessarily make more use of (non-treated)fishmeals, its more that you dont waste a load of expensive ingredients chasing a protein content that the fish cant metabolise.

but then the ingredients available these days are far superior to those available back then arent they? so why are a lot of the successful baits still based on the same milk/bird/fishmeal combination...
 
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Cakey

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"so why are a lot of the successful baits still based on the same milk/bird/fishmeal combination...".............so they earn more money out of us ??
 
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ByNasty

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Are there a lot of baits out there that are so-so? I've used a lot of different types that I've not done well on and just put it down to me being crap!
 
Murray Rogers

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Why are baits succesful though Cakes???

Is it because loads of people are using them because of the hype (ie They buy it)

Or is it because 'The fish prefer it?).

Loads of waters got turned over by base baits which were available over the counter because the majority of people fishing the water were using the same mix (word of mouth)?

If you were the only person fishing on a bit of water, and you knew that the water had not seen HNV. MNV, LNV (you get the point) would you go in expecting to clean up because the bait had such a good BV value?, or would you be using Sweetcorn?
 
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