salmon /sea trout identification.

nice piece again Mark, one thing i would like t add to your diffrences between sea trout and salmon,you havent mentioned the fact that salmon DONT have any spots below lateral line where as sea trout do, and plenty of em!

Looks like you caught the same salmon twice, Mark, though I imagine the article image has been reversed from the front page?

A thoughtful piece & increasingly relevant with rivers becoming cleaner year on year.

I'd love to be placed in the dilemma whereby I had a double-figure "spottie" in my landing net and I'm wondering, "Is that a salmon or a seatrout?"!

As for twenty-pounders!!!

Mind you, seatrout of that magnitude might have been possible in earlier times - Izaak Walton made mention of trout (seatrout, surely?) in the Kentish Stour at Canterbury "of the bigness of salmon."

Interesting article, Mark.

Blam wrote: "I imagine the article image has been reversed from the front page."

The other way round Blam. I took the picture myself when fishing the Avon with Mark. I reversed it horizontally for no other reason than cover or home page shots look better when facing into the page rather than out.

Just blame the editor in me.

Danish rivers have produced seatrout to over 30 lbs and quite recently too.

I object to some of the comments made in the article about Game Anglers. Some of these opinions are massively out of date.

The comment that stocking is a cause not to worry about Natural regeneration is absurd. The chalkstreams such as the Avon have keepers who strive all year round to preserve and improve natural habitat for spawning. Simply look on my clubs site:

www.salisburydistrictac.co.uk/

Habitat restoration by our keepers and restoration by work parties is paramount.
The work of the Salmon and Trout association and the Wild Trout trust has brought millions of investment into our sport that has aided buy outs of nets, helped massive restoration schemes to improving spawning habitats etc. The game fishing associations have embraced grayling fishing and culls are a thing of the past.

Perhaps the Coarse fishing scene should learn from the games Anglers. Game Angling is united, and its organisations bring millions in european money and private investment into the sport to improve our rivers. I only wish the disjointed and inefficnent agencies such as the NFA and various specimen groups could claim the same. Continued below:

Let us not forget that most game fisheries are in the head waters of most coarse rivers. Improving water at the head of the system can only aid the rest. FACT.

If people are prepared to pay more for game waters then I see no reason why this should be a problem. The stretches of river I fish (on my clubs game waters) rarely have any rubbish, are the most beautiful stretches of river and benefit from massive restoration and preservation activities. This comes at a price. A price many game anglers are prepared to pay. A price coarse anglers are not. For the record I am a game angler primarily but enloy fishing for all species of fish on the fly. I read many of Marks articles and always enjoy them. This one however struck a cord.

As far as I can see, I would love to see salmon and seatrout running up rivers like the Trent and even the Yorkshire Don in their hundreds of thousands, just like they did 200 years ago.

And why would I like to see it? Because I want to catch them that's why.

Along with all the other species that would thrive in the river if the water quality was good enough for the migratory fish.

One thing I will say, and I certainly am not getting at Mark here, is that there is a tendency amongst a lot of coarse anglers to think that game fishers are snobs.

This attutude may have existed many years ago. It does not exist today!

What does exist is a rather nasty form of inverted snobbery which is often displayed by some coarse fishers.

"Bunch of Toffs" I've heard game fishers called. "Bloody fluff flingers" and oft times even stronger words.

The truth is, that I have mixed in game fishing circles for more years than I can remember and I have never heard or seen these people run down the coarse fishers once.

If there is any snobbery involved regarding game fishing it comes from non-anglers. We do not need these schisms chaps. We all need to stand together, all of us that catch fish with rod, line and hook!

Richard,

You are entitled to object to my opinions. But that doesn't mean you're right and that I'm wrong.

It is true that the netting of grayling, dace and roach that took place wholesale on the Nadder and Avon above Salisbury has ceased. I have records of these fish being stocked into the Avon further downstream near Christchurch, the Stour and Frome (only after a pollution), but that was all at least 20 years ago. What is happening on the upper Avon is a continuation of the work that Frank Sawyer and many others of that ilk did in the past. These waters that you mention have been exclusively game waters for over a century, and remain so, with the only real change being that there is now flyfishing for grayling.

The waters that I am writing about are much more mixed fisheries, ie the lower Avon, lower Frome, even the Stour at one time. The sea change is that parts of the Test and Itchen which were once only the preserve of game anglers are being opened up to bait fishing for coarse fish. These waters do, I believe, rely on stocked brown trout, and this is fishing far removed from what you are describing on the Avon above Salisbury.

What I object to is money/influence forcing coarse anglers off their traditional coarse waters which seemed to be the one time though failed intent on the Thames where there was a long and expensive campaign to try to re-introduce salmon. If the Wild Trout Society wants to improve the habitat of headwaters of rivers like the Windrush above Witney, then that may benefit the river as a whole. My annual ticket cost is about ?300 yet that wouldn't buy me a day ticket on some parts of the Test, and I spend more than average for a coarse angler, so I would be less than pleased if the EA spent millions restoring the Stour salmon run (unlikely to actually happen for many and complex reasons) to find that a water like Throop was now ?200 a day for 5 salmon rods. The way we lost one month's grayling fishing on the lower Frome in October so that seatrout fishing could take place without us oiks still rankles; it wasn't about money just exclusion, and the actual seatrout fishing was never exercised anyway!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree; I will accept that Salisbury and others do a tremendous job on the Avon, Wylye, Allen etc, and more power to their elbow. But no salmon in the Thames, Trent....Please!

To give you something to look forward to I am doing and article on grayling soon, and I'd welcome any input by email, because I suspect Salisbury go about grayling fishing with a far better attitude than some.

I have heard from a very reliable source that salmon and seatrout have been caught on a Trent tributary.

That means that runs of these fish ARE taking place.

It looks like it's already started Mark.

You're lucky, Ron. My local Sussex Ouse needs a couple of spates before we'll see the sea trout heading up to their spawning grounds. So far as I'm aware very few redds have been identified this year.

coarse and game fishing exists in harmony at least in this charming chalk stream. The sea trout are amongst the heaviest in England and Wales and the Ouse Angling Preservation Society works in tandom with the Sussex Ouse Conservation society.

No salmon yet but I'd probably welcome them if they came. The sight of them jumping would be worth the price of admission.

The only rules pertaining to sea trout are as follows and I'm not sure anyone is complaining:

The Barcombe Mills Pool and the streams within the circuit of roads are reserved for SEA TROUT fishing only from 1st May to 31st October inclusive. Please note - To help sea trout conservation during periods of low water levels, fishing has been banned from either bank between the Society's car park and the old toll bridge at Barcombe Mills from 01 May until 31 October.

These waters are available to Annual Permit Holders for COARSE fishing from 1st November to March 14th inclusive at no extra charge. Permission for this may be withdrawn on a temporary basis if high numbers of sea trout are observed in the pool awaiting suitable conditions to run upstream.

FYI I'm not a game fisherman.

If you can get salmon in the Tees then the changes must be good as I remember it in the 60's where it was a neat oil slick at Stockton. Whilst it is generally accepted that cleaner rivers are better for us, it does not necessarily make the fishing better for us. Also there is a big difference in that game fishing is usually 'sight' based and coarse anglers like a 'bit' of colour on the water. At the end of the day it is hoped that any changes will improve the water quality, increase insect life and so provide more natural food for the fish. We all just have to adapt. It must also be remembered that the EA has to do work on salmon and habitats due to EU directives, not through choice. If you wish to influence the EA and their policies, or just have your voice heard, then try and join one of their RFERAC committees as I have.

The way I see it guys is this.

If migratory fish do return in large numbers on our rivers; and I sincerely hope they do, then the old law of supply and demand will kick in. Fishing for migratory species will be available to more of us at much less cost.

And by the way Blam if I were you, living close to the Sussex Ouse, I would be planning how to have a bash at those sea trout myself.

In my life I have met many coarse anglers who have no interest in game fishing whatsoever.

But I have met a few who have tried it and been successful.

And by crikey they are hooked good and solid.

No-one should ever knock angling for migratory game species usless he or she have experienced the raw thrill of a 15lb bar of solid silver running 100 yards downstream and then tail walking with the spray turning into a rainbow in the sunlight.

Barbel just cannot compare with these things.

I have done a little salmon and seatrout fishing in my life and I hope to do a little more.

In fact if my health holds and the silver tourists run, I hope to do a lot more.

Bring it on!

Ron, as usual talks sense regarding the prejudice amongst coarse fishers. Most of the game anglers I have met over the years started out as coarse anglers and most like me still coarse fish as well. Most game anglers don't have any snobbery regarding fellow anglers be it game or coarse.

I fish for Salmon and Sea trout when I can and the rivers I fish for them are not really expensive places and the fight they give, especially Salmon, is truly awesome. I think it is the pure speed of these fish that really makes a lasting impression. Havig said that I still love Tench and Roach fishing but funnily enough my three biggest Roach were caught on the Nymph from the river Wey in a noted Chub swim.

Interesting article Mark, another to provoke the masses!

I certainly recognise the situations you describe from 20-30 years ago. My old time favourite Avon venues at Somerley and Ellingham were only available from Aug and I well remember hooking and occasionally landing salmon (from springers to old battered red fish).

Ron's comments are so very right, it was a long time ago but I still remember the thrill of a 11lb springer just upstream of Ellingham Bridge.

I also recall a club match where a salmon angler "came through" about 30 pegs, very polite and friendly but an interesting experience. There was also the club match on the lower Stour when I weighed in around 5lb of bits but had 7 sea trout up to around 3lb apiece which did not count!

As for comments from others on "coarse or game", Ron's got it right again. I got into the game side via the annual pilgrimages to Chew Valley, Blagdon and the like, chucking bloody great tandem "Black Lures" and "Baby Dolls" at the massed introductions of rainbows and browns. That eventually led me to the more traditional fly venues and methods and the occassional "proper" salmon trip. Great social trips and meetings with like minded anglers. Not once did I hear a derogatory comment about coarse anglers. Far from from it!

I love tench, roach and all the other species too (Except F1 and F2 carp). But at heart I am an all round angler. I'll fish for anything in freshwater and the sea too given the chance.

And the aspect of angling I have done the least is seatrout and salmon. And I want to do more. And do it with the fly rod. Must take a few lessons in Spey casting sometime.

I promised myself last year a week on a seatrout river in Wales, but due to pressure of work it did not come to pass.

Maybe this year if I can get a few days off work.

How can I not want this in my local river or (better still!) in my landing net?!?!

http://www.fishyrob.co.uk/Southern%20Rivers/Source/Perry8lb120zSeaTrout.jpg

Ron, I've promised myself to take up fly fishing this year.

Absolutely Blam, now that is some seatrout.

Imagine that thing hammering around at the end of your line. The best I ever took was from the Eden on holiday in 1970. It weighed 7 1/2 lbs.

One the day I took it I was told that the legendary Hugh Falkus had had a 10 pounder further upstream.

I took mine on a classic Teal and Blue cast downstream and across on a glass fibre single handed fly rod I made myself in SA.

I am so pleased you are going to take up fly fishing Blam. You will never look back.

And go and try a ressie also. A really good nick rainbow can give you a hell of a workout. Never run them down.

I have never caught a steelhead in my life, but I can imagine what a fit rainbow in a fast stream can do.

I'll get all the people on FM taking up fly fishing before I'm done. Graham loves it and in a few years he has become very competent. Even Ed has taken it up - and loves it.