Whose River? So what's the answer?

  • Thread starter Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

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When the first British settlers moved to New Zealand and other colonies, they swore that the ownership of fowl and fish would never be in private hands. The right to hunt, shoot and fish, as well as the full and free right to bear arms would be vested in the citizens of these colonies.

And so it remains.

Those settlers left Britain to escape persecution by the ruling classes and the landed gentry.

In New Zealand, provided you are in possession of a national licence, you can fish anywhere. No landowner can prevent access to a river that passes through his land. It's much the same in parts of the USA too.

Walkers in Britain have been lobbying for years for the right to roam.

Maybe it's time for anglers to lobby for the right to fish.
 
Peter Jacobs

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Yes Ron, and look where the R2R Act has got us now.

I would venture to suggest that an "Angler's R2F" Act would receive little more than a muffled guffaw in the House, and quite rightly too.

Ron, riparian rights are a time honured system, and one that works. So, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?

Okay, one club has lost a prime venue and that is sad - however, if I were the Secretary of that Club I'd be down at the lawyers seeing what can be done to ensure that the club don't loose any more waters.
 
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Richard Baker 6

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You seem to overlook the fact Bob that Salmon Anglers have been paying licence fees for years as well as you. In fact the average salmon angler has paid three times as much a you per year( a salmon licence retails at around 62 I think). So if thats the terms you deal in then why shouldn't he be entitled to pay for better or more water on the same river. As it is licence fees are no longer regionalised. Your licence money could be paying for salmon re-stocking schemes on the tyne at the same time as Mr. Salmon Angler has been paying for habitat restoration of the Trent. Yet the fact remains hes paid three times more than you. As such I say he deserves three times more than you. or a better quality of water. thats how the world works.

The sydicate angler has also been paying licence fees for years. Surely hes entitled to uy the water he wants to fish.

Its an open Market out there. Coarse clubs have been marvelously cheap for years. I'm amazed the gazumping has only just started.

The days of Salmon Anglers throwing fish up the bank is hugely oudated, and probably limited to a few waters so snooty that you or I or anyone else apart from royalty would never want to fish there.

In fact Salmon anglers catch so few fish these days that many are glad of the odd catch of a chub or pike. It can bring excitement to an otherwise dull day.
 
C

Chairman BAZ (Angel of the North)

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The days of salmon anglers throwing fish up the bank is hugely outdated??
No it isn't, a salmon angler was seen to kick a pike to death only last year, and this was on the Ribble.

Yes, course fishing is cheap for the individual, but collectively we pay as much as anybody else.
 
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jason fisher

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richard.
as it is salmon anglers contribute roughly 3 times that what a coarse angler contributes per licence, but over all coarse anglers put in more than 70 % of the revenues. so if salmon anglers want all the best bits of waters maybe they could contribute to them on a fair scale , for example to get a moral right they should be contributing more than the coarse fishers in total so lets say a game licence fee of ?200 per anum roughly, then you can make comments about how much you pay.

as it is there is a massive ammount of our licence money leached away to be thrown at so called habitat improvement. when enquiries are made as to what this improvement entails we find out it is stocking salmon and providing fish passes for said salmon to go through. good use of the coarse licvence there then.
 
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Richard Baker 6

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If coarse fishing's strength lies in numbers then, rather than the amount of money each individual provides then I suggest Angling clubs have to get more members to justify paying the fees which will invariably go up. As this is an issue (as I understand it from these threads falling membership has been an issue in coarse circles) Then Coarse anglers are going to lose out. Its sad but true.

If your strength lies in numbers then unite and use them. Unfortunately the rise of commercials, a lack of perception of the value of a natural river by many coarse anglers (more fool them) and an old fashioned atitude in an unwillingness to pay decent money for decent sport will result in waters being lost. If Salmon increase and salmon anglers take advantage of this Its because the relative weak position of coarse clubs (outlined above) has allowed for that. No one has a right for anything in this tiny country of ours. The countryside is largely for hire and the owners can charge what they want.

Although the salmon anglers are taking advantage the coarse fishing world really is playing into the hands of a well funded, organised and united beast.
 
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Richard Baker 6

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In addition, if Salmon licences did go up to ?200 and this entitled Salmon anglers to the best waters I very much doubt that there would be a drop in salmon licence sales.
 
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I enjoy fishing for Salmon and i coarse fish. In fact I'm away for a week in jockland from tomorrow for my annual fluff flinging, whipping the water to a foam, in pursuit of the silver tourists to no avail; so I can see both sides of this argument and to be frank money will always win. Lets face it many coarse clubs charge a pittance for some good fishing because up to now they have been able to rent river stretches for next to nothing. But with habitat improvement a river has now once more become a valuable asset.

The landowners are waking up to this fact so are throwing their assets open to the highest bidder. The old peppercorn rent and gentleman's agreement to look after the water by the old club mean nothing to the allure of hard cash. The only way the coarse clubs can continue to exist is to perhaps look at some way of buying the waters/stretches themselves. Perhaps even cutting down the number of waters they have a right to fish to fund the purchase of some prime waters.

To fund this the clubs will have to put up the price of their card which no doubt will cause hardship for some anglers(regretable I know), but it is probably the only way I can see they ensure their survival in what is going to become a very competitive market.
 
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jason fisher

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"the average salmon angler has paid three times as much a you per year( a salmon licence retails at around 62 I think). So if thats the terms you deal in then why shouldn't he be entitled to pay for better or more water on the same river."

if for example salmon anglers were to contribute relative proportions of the total income that coarse anglers do now. we would have to keep the coarse licence at the same level and have salmon anglers pay nearly ?400 per year just for a licence.
i would be all for this as it would then give them the right to make the claims that you did in your earlier post.
other wise you do not have a case.
i.e you would have a 2/3 majority in contributions. this would also rely on none of the income from coarse licences being used for the benefit of salmon or salmon anglers. which i assure you is not the case at the moment.
 
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

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Yes I'm probaly getting a little carried away there chaps. As Rich says, this is a tiny country. You could probably hide it in the South Island of NZ, or even in the province of KwaZulu Natal.

And there's the rub innit.

All of a sudden people are awaking to the fact that we now have clean rivers and barbel. Add salmon to that equation and you have great wealth potential.

Not enough to go around.
 
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Richard Baker 6

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Jason, you make a good point. Again ?400 a licence would proably not be an issue for the discerning salmon angler, again presuming it gave access to the right sort of premium water.

As for the current situation, Money will always win. As a landowner look at the two options:

1) a club with a large number of members (many of which are not vetted), a bailif who visits only occasionally, and a branch of the sport that seems to lend itself to litter

2) a Syndicate of people menaing less numbers on the river, also not vetted but also due to limited numbers highly accountable and recogniseable

3) a Game syndicate, highly limited numbers of rods, mostly vetted, very little litter, and a full time keeper (achievable because of the increase in money game clubs pay).

I know which option is least attractive.
 
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Tony Rocca

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That the Salmon angler is going to make a return to the Yorkshire rivers and the Trent is certainly on the cards, you wouldnt believe the Salmon run numbers for last year.

But, things change, just look at the Trent today compared with 30 years ago, goodbye man sat on box, hello camo freak. Might be hello tweed clad Salmon angler in a few years time.

I say, so what, adapt and change, secure your fishing if you want to keep it because no one else will do it for you. Do nothing,.... fine, but dont grumble when its gone.

The Royalty was lost to a hostile take over, now this bit of the Ribble is. But just two examples of what has been going on for years and years and years. Nothing new here and nothing will change it. Christchurch and Warrington ought to look at themselves first and ask why they lost it, eye off ball? Its not usually down to money alone.

Anyone who thinks that free for all access on the rivers is the way forward ought to have moved to Russia in the 1970's. They might have been happy there, doubt it though.

Its a competative world, Bob used to match fish so should know that well enough.

I dont strongly disagree with anything Bob wrote here, bit over the top maybe thats all.

I would like to know what you propose to stem the flow to syndication and to halt the Salmon angler though Bob. All I can think of is to buy the rivers up but I only have a tenner on me at the mo.

Only answer I have is "play the game".

.
 
P

Phil Hackett Manchester Granitewith Pride

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Tony whilst your entitled to pose questions, you're wrong in WAA case.
And I do know all the facts, unlike you!
 
Graham Whatmore

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Reading some of the above, especially Mr Richard Baker 6, I think I liked it better when salmon were on the decline. If ever there was a more vivid demonstration of "them and us" on this website than that shown by him then I would like to see it.

As a lifelong lover of river fishing I would feel very grieved if my access to the river was denied by a poncy load of idiots with plenty of money throwing bits of fluff all over the banks.

In past years I've had access to stretches of the Wye where I have been given permission to fish providing I killed every coarse fish I caught. I fished these stretches but never once did I kill a fish. This total lack of respect for nature is still very prevalent amongst salmon fishermen and don't let anybody tell you different, I still fish what is normally a salmon only stretch of the Wye and the hatred of coarse fish still prevails.

If money is going to be the only thing that will secure our river fishing then co-operatives is the only road to go down, individual clubs will be priced out of the market, maybe even one association that represents coarse anglers alone. Alternatively have a law that makes it illegal to ban anybody access to the river as Ron says which is probably the ideal road to go down.
 
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Tony Rocca

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Phil, I dont know any of the facts, didnt say I did, just thinking out loud. Bit touchy arnt we?

Eye on the ball in their case then was it? Must have been the filthy loot then.
 
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jason fisher

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you lot wouldn't listen to me when i said ther will be no good come of salmon being in our rivers it will only lead to the loss of coarse fishing.

i was bluddi right though weren't i it's happened .
 
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

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Ja well no fine Graham.

Just a question here.

Who owns the river and the fish in it?

As regards fighting pollution over the years, the organisation that has done a terrific job has been the ACA. And I'll bet there are more game anglers proportionately than coarse anglers who are individual members of the ACA.

Salmon in our rivers Jason!

How can you stop them running if the river is clean? Salmon running our rivers is part of nature and the essence of a pristine river.

How many salmon are running the Trent at the moment Tony, can you give us any figures?

Sounds like the schism is still with us guys.

I'm off to the States!!
 
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Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

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The EA for the past few years have been placing up to 160,000 salmon parr per year in the Dove. According to the EA a large number of these salmon are returning to the Dove to spawn.

This is all part of the EA's salmon action plan for the Trent and the Severn.

There is no doubt that one of the EA's prime aims is to establish many of our rivers as salmon fisheries during the next few years. And it looks like they are being successful at this.

Coarse anglers, the day of the 3 quid day ticket and 30 quid a year club card will soon be over. Soon we will all be required to take out a migratory species licence when we fish many of our rivers.
 
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jason fisher

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Soon we will all be required to take out a migratory species licence when we fish many of our rivers.

why should we when we have no interest in fishing for them. why should we lose perfectly good rivers to an extict species. afterall tey died out so why do we have to have them back, they didn't come back naturally.
 
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