PVA - anyhidden dangers?

J

John McLaren

Guest
The thread on lead poisoning started me thinking about other things that we put into the waters we fish. In particular: PVA (which I use and find very useful.

I have had a brief trawl through the 'net and understand that PVA is non-toxic but what happens to the residues left behind when it dissolves? Is there a danger that in years to come waters may suffer problems caused by these residues? A build up of waste on the bed or reduced oxygenation perhaps?

Anyone know the answer?
 
R

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

Guest
As far as I have been able to ascertain in discussions with polymer experts years ago, Polyvinyl Alchohol is completely non-toxic.
 
E

ED (The ORIGINAL and REAL one)

Guest
but it might be after laying in the water for 200 years -- no-one has ever tested that ......
 
S

Sean Meeghan

Guest
It'll be the sea not the rivers Eddie! It'll just end up as a dilute solution of polyvinyl alcohol if barbel fishing becomes any more popular!

Hmmm... not sure it will be stable in a dilute salt solution. Must check my old text books!
 
E

ED (The ORIGINAL and REAL one)

Guest
It might explode and blow up the world ...

These bloody barbel anglers have got a lot to answer for !!!
 
J

John McLaren

Guest
I think my question should have been more specifically aimed at still waters, there is clearly a less of a problem on rivers (if there is a problem)
 
R

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

Guest
I think it would be a good idea to consult experts in the long term effects of Polyvinyl Alcohol.
 
R

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

Guest
After a brief surf around I have found out the following:

"PVOH* decomposes on heating and when burnt produces toxic fumes"

"Reacts with oxidants and strong acids"

"May be hazardous in the environment,
ATTENTION SHOULD BE GIVEN TO FISH!!"

"Not hazardous by OSHA standards."

"Reported as "animal positive" for carcinogenicity."

"May be used in food contact applications."

*PVOH is the accepted acronym in industry for Polyvinyl Alcohol, not PVA!

PVA is Polyvinyl acetate.
 
F

Frothey

Guest
*PVOH is the accepted acronym in industry for Polyvinyl Alcohol, not PVA!


theres some nutters about on the web eh ron?
 
R

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

Guest
Actually Frothey I was severely censored some years ago for mentioning the truth about the PVA/PVOH acronym.

It wasn't me who brought it up, it was one of the polymer technicians at the firm I was working for at the time.

The main thing here however is to establish if there is anything bad with the usage of PVOH. Vast quantities of the stuff are sold to anglers every week, all of which ends up being dissolved on our lakes and rivers. I use plenty of it too, for barbel fishing.

Is it really doing any damage?
 
S

Sean Meeghan

Guest
OK here we go. I knew the chemistry degree would come in useful some day!

Polyvinyl alcohol is used as a thickener,
stabilizer, and binder in cosmetics, paper cloth, films, cements and mortars. Like most molecules with alcohol groups on them it is hydrophilic which means that to some degree it is soluble in water. What inhibits its solubility is the sheer size of the molecule. It it this property that makes it so useful to us anglers.

It is a fully saturated molecule (all single bonds for the techies)which means that it is pretty stable and not likely to be at all carcinogenic (can't find any literature on this so you'll have to take my word for it). It is biodegradeable in the environment although I'm not sure if there is any research on how this occurs in solution.

It is non-toxic and it is often used in school experiments to produce a slime similar to the stuff you can buy in toy shops. This is done by treating a solution of pva with borax if you want to try it at home. The borax removes the hydrogen from the alcohol group and allows cross-linking to occur (again only for techies!).

The reference Ron made to producing toxic fumes on burning doesn't make a lot of sense. I think this may be a reference to partial combustion which can produce nasties from any hydrocarbon compound, even sausages! I therefore wouldn't recommend you putting pva in your roll-ups, although it is like likely to be less toxic than tobacco when burnt!

To sum up. I would only be concerned about the effect of pva when it reaches high concentrations in water (much higher than we're likely to get from dissolved pvs bags). Again, there is no research that I can find, but I would suspect that in high concentrations it might affect dissolved oxygen content and the take-up of oxygen by the fishes gills (dissolved substances can have a pretty dramatic effect on processes such as osmosis). My gut feel is that this is unlikely to happen to any great extent as much of the dissolved pva will biodegrade before this happens.

Hope that helps!
 

Deanos

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Thank you Sean for bringing some sanity to ?mad scientist Ron?s? theory that setting fire to pva bags before casting could be hazardous to ones health!
I have looked through all my latest carp mags Ron, and can find no reference to this practice, but! if this is the way forward with the use of this method, I am in!
I shall be on the lake tonight with a gallon of diesel to dunk the bags in before casting, and a large calor gas bottle with a gas poker attached so I can give it a good send off before whacking it out.
I shall let you know my results in the morning!
Ps, I have thrown my bait rocket away in favour of a large baked bean can, as I can get a half pint of paraffin flamed up in the little beauty, although the tiger nuts end up smelling like dry roasted peanuts if you don?t cast out with haste!
 
J

John McLaren

Guest
Thanks Sean I can carry on using pva with a relatively clear conscience.
 
R

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

Guest
Thanks Sean, I did mechnical engineering, not chemistry.

I believe the stuff is used in the movie industry a lot for horror films. It makes the most remarkable "slime" when diluted with a little water - try it.

The only objection I have to the stuff is its high price.
 
S

Sean Meeghan

Guest
Deanos you'll have a lot more fun by attaching a pva bag to a used gas cartridge and throwing it in a container of burning diesel. This will have the satisfying effect of firing toxic partially burnt pva randomly around your peaceful fishery and polluting the atmosphere with carcinogentic diesel combustion products at the same time!!!

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS - I'M ONLY JOKING (its called irony!)
 

Deanos

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Thanks for another brilliant tip Sean!, as soon as I find out where Ron is fishing next, I will be there to try this out (does it work for barbel as well?).
Ps, have you noticed how Ron is trying to ?wriggle out? of his earlier statement, big know all!
 
S

Sean Meeghan

Guest
You might need to use a bigger canister for Barbel Deanos - they are a bit heavier than a pva bag. Make sure you give them ample time to recover in the net before attaching them to the canister as you don't want them going belly up after release!
 
R

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)

Guest
All those statements came off various websites, not from me.
 
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