Open bail arm or bait runner?

right then this is budgies fault he brought it up, but after years of experimentation i have come to the conclusion that the most effective bit indication set up for me has been.

front alarm, heavy carp style bobbin mounted on the back bankstick and bail arm closed with the bait runner engaged.

i have to admit i do the vast majority of my piking on britains larger rivers given the opportunity.

so what's your prefferred set up and why.

Pike float. Rod laid on the bank with the bail arm open.
The reason for this is that when I did do pike fishing, I moved about a lot and carried little in the way of tackle.
Also it was less resistance to a taking Pike. And the Pike always give you a run, mine did anyway. The timing was criticle so as not to deep hook the fish. You have seen my photo's Jase.

I use a twin AVA predater back biter alarm, with a pair of Biomasters with the bail arm open, all my pick ups result in runs, not saying i convert them all to fish but it results in less dropped takes.
With the baitrunner facility i find that they offer too much ressistance all be it only slight but any ressistance is too much.

Off the baitrunner on rivers if there's any wind or flow, on the boat or float fishing pits.

Bail arm open legering stillwaters, hevaier boat stuff mainly because the reels I use for that don't have baitrunners.

This is something we've been talking about for five or six years on and off.

Don't think it really matters to be honest.

I could never bring myself to pike fish with a twin drop off........i like to cover as much water area as safetly possible.......if the pike take offence at the lightest setting of a bait runner then IMHO they aint worth catching?

But i have to agree with Baz.....nothing but nothing is like watching a float start to "play up".........and i have used some huge floats for piking without resitance being a problem

I love this topic.

For rivers it's always the float for me with some slack line unless sunk paternostering livos, then it's front alarm, drop offs and open bail.

Legering deads on a pit it's heavy bobbins tight to the rod, safety clipped leads and the baitrunner carp stle ,(unless I'm float legering or fishing popped up baits,then I back up the indication with open bail and drop offs again.)

I took up the carp style for legered deads after reading an article by Dave Lumb. At the time I was getting some very twitchy takes on deads hard on the bottom, going to the carp style set up, these twitchy takes were replaced by very confident takes with a very good hook up rate.

I don't believe that resistance puts pike off as long as the resistance is constant. When I thought about the number of aborted takes I had with the drop offs falling and the strike connecting to nothing it made sense to me.

I took up the carp style for legered deads after reading an article by Dave Lumb. At the time I was getting some very twitchy takes on deads hard on the bottom, going to the carp style set up, these twitchy takes were replaced by very confident takes with a very good hook up rate.

Think DL's point is a fixed lead moves and a running one doesn't as much, so the fish can - say go off to one side, you get an L-shaped bow in the line if the lead's sliding on the line and the pike drops the bait when it feels you winding down to it.

Made me think, I seem to do better with the lead on a running link, which should cause the same problem but I don't miss that many when they actually move off with the bait and I tend to use quite big baits/leads most of the time.

chris you have a point there, the majority of my ledgered dead bait fishing in rivers is done with a running lead, but to add to it, i always balance my baitrunner.

balancing the baitrunner goes as follows.

cast out tighten up then wind off the tension on the runner untill line starts to be taken by the flow.
at this point tighten the runner then tighten up to the bait.
then slacken the baitrunner by 2 less clicks than i tightened it up by.

the leads are always on a wide bore run ring and minimum of 4 oz, my thinking being that the fish feel minimal resistance from the baitrunner if it is on the edge of being taken down strem by the flow, how would this change in a still water, presumably fish the runner as slack as you can get away with.

"This is something we've been talking about for five or six years on and off.
"
dont blame me it's budgies fault that i started it again.

and there must be some situations where one method is better than the other. maybe we will all work them out together and bank more fish as a result.

well we can hope.

I think this is a very important subject indeed and one that many get wrong and just as many get right but without knowing why!

Gilby has hit on what I have believed for some years now is the real reason for dropped runs. It is indeed not the resistance it self but the change of resistance. In general I believe that open bail arm is the best all round approach, certainly in still or slow moving water. I also believe the reason that people can some times "get away" with using baitrunners in the same situations is determined by the rig/set up they are using.

When a pike or any fish for that matter picks up a bait be it dead or alive he isn?t clever enough to know what sort of weight/resistance he is like likely to feel. Just hasn?t got the mental capacity or need for this to concern him. What he does know from learned experience is that it should feel the same a few seconds later/feet away as it did when he first picked it up. Simple enough and surely undisputable (or if not certainly a reasonable assumption) so far? Now if this resistance/weight was to change regardless of it being suddenly or gradually it would make him frightened (I won?t say suspicious as I once again don?t feel a fish is this aware) and he will most likely drop the bait. So people argue what does it matter if the fish is subjected to the constant resistance of the baitrunner or the open bail? The reason in my opinion is that hitting the bait runner isn?t the first contact (so setting the precedence of resistance/weight) that the fish encounters. Its the second or what we are talking about here a "change" this being because picking up the bait and "feeling" the weight/resistance of the rig is what actual sets the precedence.

Situations where people/you can "get away" with a baitrunner are simply ones where the rig or situation ensures that when the fish picks up (in fact I don?t like that term as it really refers to static deads only) "takes" the bait it feels the combined resistance of the bait/rig and baitrunner as one therefore there being no subsequent "change of resistance" two examples of this-

Fishing in running water where you can adjust the bait runner to only just counteract the force of the current. Due to the current every thing is in a line and tight.

Trolling baits. Much the same mechanics as above just that you are creating the movement which you have to adjust the bait runner to overcome.

With out labouring the point I?m sure if you give the mechanics of some of your rigs a bit of thought you will see that some will allow the use of a bait runner to give a change of resistance whilst others either wont or wont to the same degree.

Because of this other than the specific situations I?ve given I feel the best bet all round is to use an open bail so eliminating (as best as we can any way) any secondary source and therefore change of resistance. Surely better to use the best system than "get away" with a poorer one?

Well that?s my attempt to explain the theory side of my argument. Please remember though that this theory has been put forward to try and understand actual results which are in my book the real acid test.

On still waters and slow moving ones (waters where as I?ve said I feel the open bail is the way) I?ve fished with several friends who despite using the same rigs and baits as me have used the baitrunner mechanism. This has been mainly down to their carp fishing backgrounds. We often stager our rods when fishing together to make it "fairer" using the same rigs and baits as myself its no wonder that they normally (certainly over the space of a few trips/season it averages out) get the same amount of pick ups/takes/runs as I do. I should imagine that I have a 95% hook up to take ratio with a 90% landing to hook up ratio. My mates landing to hook up ratios are much the same........their take to hook up ones are no where near! Dropped run city is often the order of the day for them. A good day on the river can see 20 odd runs each I normally end up banking most of these the baitrunner mate less than a third.

When I go with other mates who use open bail as well our results over a period of time are much the same as each other.

It would be so easy to say "if your getting dropped runs using the bait runner just open the bail and you will see that I'm right" but in practice (like I?ve said) the other factors of rig design, type of water and method used also must be considered.

It seems to work better for me when directly compared to my bait runner mates (who inevitably swap over after a few trips!)I?ve tried to explain my reasoning behind my belief and given practical examples to confirm. But if it at least gets you thinking about this issue then I?ve achieved some thing!

See I can post without mentioning Chods or Deanos fat auntie! Oh damn nearly did any way!

I done a fare amount of experimentinting a while back with open bail on one rod & bait runner engaged on the other, alternating both between legered/paternoster rigs.
I have to admit i had a preconceived idea that the colder periods would show more dropped runs/takes on the rod with the baitrunner engaged & less on the rod with open bail.
In reality it was difficult to pinpoint a definite trend between the two.
One thing i did notice was that dropped takes or apparent mouthed takes (possibly zander)as appossed to droped runs seemed to accure more with ledgered dead bait rigs on rivers at close range, which did make me think that the amount of tension on the baitrunner needed to support the weight of the drop off was causing a sudden tug against the spool when the indicator pulled free?
It's difficult to say because i found little diffrence between open bail & baitrunner.
Incidently, you can have a bait runner set a little lighter with a heavy drop off if you attach it to the front rod rest, not my preference though.

"Pike float. Rod laid on the bank with the bail arm open. The reason for this is that when I did do pike fishing, I moved about a lot and carried little in the way of tackle." In winter time when on the drains using a very mobile approach, I float fish deads and fish exactly the same as you did Baz. There's nothing to compare with a float sliding away!!!

I always fish an open bail arm when Zandering / Piking when not mobile and using alarms in the Fens. Budgie has hit the nail on the head IMHO regarding the primary and secondary resistance. I fish a helicopter rig with my livebaits, the predator will feel the 2oz+ weight as soon as it takes the livebait. The preyfish will be obviously trying to escape its attacker and will be at maximum free swimming distance from the rig (about 12inches). My own experiences are that the predators tend to fly off when they take this bait, because they have to hit a livebait very aggressively I don't think the weight of the rig would overly concern the fish, what I don't want is the pred to then stop in its tracks because it feels the resistance of a baitrunner.

When deadbaiting at night I still employ an open bail arm in conjunction with as light a 'clip up' as I can possibly get away with.

I can see conditions where the use of the baitrunner would be beneficial, ie in very fast flows and when not using backclips etc
However, in the generally slow flowing rivers and drains I fish for Zeds and Pike, I just don't see any advantages to be had by employing a baitrunner instead of an open bail arm. Hence its the open bail arm for Disco Dave!

Capn carrot.......it's still a great debate no matter how many times you bring it up!

it stopped sooner than i expected though

what I don't want is the pred to then stop in its tracks because it feels the resistance of a baitrunner.

though i'm not convinced on that one, personally think it's a change in resistance that worries them not feeling a comstant resistance.

Capt C I think youve missed the main point of my post.Other than the couple of situations Ive detailed it is the baitrunner coming into play that is indeed the "change of resistance" which undoubtedly is the problem.

but surely if you are fishing reasonably tight then a slack bait runner wouldn't change the resistance.

I think that in most situations it isnt possible to make the bait runner the first source of resistance.If it is then fine.

With the actual mechanics of how things work under water (BTW a vast and complicated subject with a multitude of variables) I base most of my coments/thoughts on my time actually spent underwater!

And Deano thought the rubbersuit was just for his Aunties delectation!

Most anglers have some very strange ideas on what goes on under water.

Most anglers have some very strange ideas on what goes on under water.

Very true Budgie. Legering at any distance with mono, your line's draped across the bottom and a fish has got to drag all that as it moves off with the bait to swallow it.

Exactly Chris no matter how tight it is!

I was obviously very lucky to have the opportunity to learn about such things (and must admit to having played with lots of rigs etc underwater whilst supposedly getting my hours in!( this is often done in swimming pools!)No point trying to do it in working situations as every where Ive ever "worked" underwater youve not been able to see your hand in front of your mask!)

Luke always used to laugh at my insistance on getting in the river whenever we tried out any of his cat fishing "inventions" but its the only way!

Like I said I was lucky but even the bath tub will teach you a few things its just that a lot of anglers today just accept what they read in mags or just dont have any curiosity at all! I bet 90% of rig "testing" during the design/conception stage is done sat in a bivvy or in front of the telly!