Fishmeal and it's alternatives

quickcedo · Jul 25, 2011

As the price of fishmeal steadilly rises what are the alternatives? Two years ago I used a poultry meal, which worked quite well but wouldn't or didn't, seem to take the flavours aswell as fishmeal and although i caught well on it, last year I've reverted to fishmeal. But of course there will come a time when I can't justify the cost. So apart from seed mixes.............

steph mckenzie · Jul 25, 2011

Perhaps a liquid alternative added to BrownCrumb / Groundbait or Pellets ?

Ground pellets perhaps, or are they made from Fishmeal already ?

Sorry Mark, i really have no idea, but i am very interested to hear others thoughts on this subject.

barbelboi · Jul 25, 2011

Mark, have you tried getting fishmeal pellets wholesale. As I stated in another thread we get 25kg sacks of 4mm, 6mm and 8mm (they may well do other sizes as well) for £28 from a place in Isleworth. We started doing this when prices travelled upwards - Van den Eynde are now £3.50 for 900gm locally

Jerry

Bob Hornegold · Jul 25, 2011

Tigernut Meal ?

There are few about, but the cost of all the ingredients are going up, the cost of Hemp has gone up be a 1/3rd recently.

Bob

quickcedo · Jul 25, 2011

I have a good, reasonably cheap supplier at the moment, but I am interested in anybodies ideas for the future. I am reliably informed that the far easts 'hunger' for fishmeal will raise the price over here to the point where pellets and other fishmeal based baits will be out of reach of the average angler.
So lets work on the scenario that a bag of pellets is now £15 (if you can find them). Fishmeal for a base mix, so expensive you can't justify it.
Where do you go from there? Given you still want fish boilies and not birdseed ones.
Just thought I have tried meatmeal, maizemeal and a few others but you know what? they don't work as well as fishmeal imo. Maybe a blend with whey protein??

cg74 · Jul 25, 2011

Cheap alternative sources of protein:
Blood meal (though it might be hard to find at a standard feedable to fish)
Fresh liver (which of course is hard to keep fresh on the bank)
Soya flour
Tiger nut flour
Maize flour (sorry but all cereals are set to rocket in price, above their already inflated prices)

Sorry mate, it doesn't bode well for cheap baits..... My advice; stock up well on all things that are nonperishable.

dezza · Jul 26, 2011

The way that the world is consuming fish meal products is totally unsustainable. At this rate the oceans will be totally denuded in a few years.

When this happens, many anglers are going to have to set their sites a heck of a lot lower given that a lot of big fish get to be big by the use of high protein baits and groundbaits based on fishmeal. In 10 years time there might not be a carp in the UK over 30 lbs.

noknot · Jul 26, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
When this happens, many anglers are going to have to set their sites a heck of a lot lower given that a lot of big fish get to be big by the use of high protein baits and groundbaits based on fishmeal. In 10 years time there might not be a carp in the UK over 30 lbs.

Why do you say that Ron? There were 30+lbs Carp in the UK way before fishmeal/HNV baits were ever used???

Peter Jacobs · Jul 26, 2011

As best I can discover it appears that the world production of Fishmenal is in the region of between 23 and 24 million tonnes per year.

Now, I know that some anglers use a fair bit, but I doubt if we get through more than a couple of thousand tonnes, at a guess throughout the UK.

If the prices are increasing then maybe it will direct a few more anglers back to the more 'traditional' baits, although I doubt that very much, more of a hope really.

cg74 · Jul 26, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
The way that the world is consuming fish meal products is totally unsustainable. At this rate the oceans will be totally denuded in a few years.

When this happens, many anglers are going to have to set their sites a heck of a lot lower given that a lot of big fish get to be big by the use of high protein baits and groundbaits based on fishmeal. In 10 years time there might not be a carp in the UK over 30 lbs.

Ron, I'm sure you know that isn't exactly true, now don't you???
I accept there would be fewer big carp, well actually fewer huge fish of many species.

But there are many alternatives out there if anyone (especially bait manufacturers) could be bothered to look into it, though they're so full of spiel, suddenly tiger nut flour and semolina will regain favour.

mg:

quickcedo · Jul 26, 2011

I'd like to find a Cashew nut meal. Now that would be interesting to work with.
PJ, your figures are of course spot on, but you don't take into account the infated prices due to far East demand. Nor the fact the fish which make fishmeal are getting harder and harder to find.
Ron, I think to a degree you're right. Some fish or course will still grow to impressive sizes. the problem is these fish will then be hounded by the circus. At the moment there are plenty of big fish to go for, but as that number slowly drops well, lets just say it's going to be interesting.

richiekelly · Jul 26, 2011

if fishmeals become to expensive there are other ingredients with a much higher protein level that can be used although most of the protein would be going straight through the fish, feather meal is one such product [99% protein if i remember correctly], i dont know the protein levels of commercialy made baits but i doubt they are high enough to be classed as HNV baits certainly the ones containing high levels of semo and soya flour are not but with the amount of different baits going into waters nowadays is it the protein in baits that is growing big fish or is it the large amounts of easily accesible food that is available to the fish that is doing it.

dezza · Jul 27, 2011

Prior to HNV baits, there was only Redmire, Tiddenfoot, Ashlea, the Peterborough Electricity Cut and Billing Aquadrome that had fish in excess of 30 lbs. And then there were only a few 30s.

Redmire - maybe 3, Tiddenfoot, the one caught by Pete Frost, Ashlea, only 1, Billing, maybe 2 and the cut, 1.

1/2 a dozen in the whole of the UK.

If we consider Redmire, The Bishop was caught umpteen times by the anglers who fished there giving the impression that there were more big carp than there were. Yates 43 pounder was a very sick fish - look at the photo.

The situation today is that there are many carp above 30 pounds dotted around many waters, including waters in Yorkshire. Just how many are grown on UK fish is difficult to ascertain. The vast majority are imports from France.

Let's face it, if a fishery owner can boast of a couple of 40s, and prove it, the revenue in fishing ticket sales could make a fishery owner quite rich.

I read somewhere that a 40 pound carp in an English water is worth about £6,000.00

richiekelly · Jul 27, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
Prior to HNV baits, there was only Redmire, Tiddenfoot, Ashlea, the Peterborough Electricity Cut and Billing Aquadrome that had fish in excess of 30 lbs. And then there were only a few 30s.

ron the above were waters with known 30s in them but they were not the only waters that contained them prior to hnv baits, an estate lake very near to my home had 2 in both caught during night time "guest sessions" by a freind who no longer fishes the biggest went 31.13, also in another water one was caught by a match angler, this water [about 4 miles from my home] was filled in some years later and a housing estate built on it. the 2 from the estate lake were both caught on lob worms.

dezza · Jul 27, 2011

Yes, that's true, but I'll wager that then, the amount of unknown 30s was very very small, and they would be confined to a very small handful of waters in Kent and the home counties, not counting Redmire of course.

In carp fishing history, it's only quite recently that anglers have been taking note of re-capture. In fact with mirror carp its easy, the scale pattern being the same as a unique fingerprint. When recaptures were recorded, anglers became astonished just how few carp there were in a water.

The camera has been responsible for a hell of a lot of solved mysteries.

Lots of Photos in Kevin Clifford's "A History of Carp Revisited", show evidence of recaptures. I get the feeling that there were only a handful of carp in the Peterborough Electricity Cut. Eric Hodson thought that there were less than 10!!!!!

darrengeorge · Jul 27, 2011

Hydrolysed (pre-digested) products will become more viable, such as hydrolysed feather meal, poultry meal, meat meal.

There are already several non-fishmeal HNV baits available, some based on meat meal, some on poultry.

Poultry meal has been shown to produce good growth rates in fish. Perhaps not as good as fishmeal, but far more sustainable. It's also attractive in it's own right.

gentle · Jul 27, 2011

If you have an old blender. Vitalin crowns are only £10 for 15 kg. If you blend them up into a powder they can be used in boilies, paste and groundbaits to very good effect. They have a HNV and are full of omega oils too. They also kick off a very pungent smell and absorb other bait additives well.

I have used them in boiles and groundbait/method mix myself and fished them rod for rod against marine halibut boilies and fishmeal method and had a fish on both rods in a short 4 hour session. I know thats not conclusive proof of their effectivness but at least it didnt fail. Always worth a try and you can pickup small bags of 1 kilo for the princely price of £1 if you just want to give it a quick go.

G.

quickcedo · Jul 27, 2011

What do you mean by "Vitalin Crowns"??
Mate you sound like a man after my own heart. Vitalin has been in every bait I've made for myself and others for years. I love the stuff. I agree it does help produce an HNV bait, but most on here think HNV means high protein, that is simply not so. What most home baitmakers don't seem to grasp is the protein level is irrelevant. It's the amount of protein which can be assimilated by the fish coz the rest just gets past out the rear end.
Ron, I pretty much agree with what you have said but don't forget to take into account the 'new strains' which have been developed in more recent times.

cg74 · Jul 27, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
Prior to HNV baits, there was only Redmire, Tiddenfoot, Ashlea, the Peterborough Electricity Cut and Billing Aquadrome that had fish in excess of 30 lbs. And then there were only a few 30s.

Redmire - maybe 3, Tiddenfoot, the one caught by Pete Frost, Ashlea, only 1, Billing, maybe 2 and the cut, 1.

1/2 a dozen in the whole of the UK.

If we consider Redmire, The Bishop was caught umpteen times by the anglers who fished there giving the impression that there were more big carp than there were. Yates 43 pounder was a very sick fish - look at the photo.

The situation today is that there are many carp above 30 pounds dotted around many waters, including waters in Yorkshire. Just how many are grown on UK fish is difficult to ascertain. The vast majority are imports from France.

Let's face it, if a fishery owner can boast of a couple of 40s, and prove it, the revenue in fishing ticket sales could make a fishery owner quite rich.

I read somewhere that a 40 pound carp in an English water is worth about £6,000.00

Ron, I don't know when you see as pre-HNV era but TBH it doesn't really matter as the I can tell you for a fact; I know of a damned sight more than six 30lb+ carp that have either seen no or such insignificant quantities of HNV baits that is still possible to say they reached there weights via natural foods only...... In June 1989 there were three 30lb+ carp found dead in the Oxford canal, due to a Spring Viremia out break, the biggest went just over 34lbs and was weighed with match scales that had there accuracy regularly checked.
And if you think they were helped to those weight with anglers bait of any description, dream on!!

I could tell you of an Oxfordshire estate lake that has produced five different 30's this year (none of which were gravid) and that lake has never seen any HNV bait whatsoever!
Gravel pits, well I'll let you mull that over for yourself.
A farm reservoir I've been merrily guesting for a number of years, though I'm yet to take a 3o, I have had two different 28lb+ carp and they aren't the biggest!

Like I said earlier in this thread, the end of affordable HNV baits will effect some fisheries but really only the heavily stocked ones will truly suffer dramatic weight loses.

dezza · Jul 27, 2011

The start of the HNV era, about 1970 I would say, when carp anglers started using cat food preparations and Fred Wilton wrote his classic, "Towards the Ultimate Bait", written in the pages of "The Carp", the BCSG magazine.

Fishmeal and it's alternatives

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