Rivers holding barbel

Graham Whatmore · Dec 3, 2006

I am currently reading Bob Church's book "Big Barbel" and when flicking through it I came across the river records for barbel as of December 2004.

I was absolutely stunned to read just how many of our rivers contain barbel let alone specimen sized barbel. If I had been asked the question I would have said somewhere around 20 maybe slightly more. What would you have guessed, that is if you didn't already know?

Well the answer is 61 and that's only the rivers that have official barbel records. I don't know about you but I find that an amazing fact, I would never have dreamt in a month of Sundays that there were that many, like I always say you are never too old to learn!

I was even more amazed to see that the tiny river Mease in Staffs has a barbel record of 13lb. That this tiny little river that you can literally jump across in places should contain barbel of that size makes me wonder if we are neglecting some of our smaller waterways. I have known for 40 years that the Mease contains some specimen sized roach and chub but I never thought for a minute it contained barbel.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA) · Dec 3, 2006

I'm not surprised that there are 61.

I've caught barbel in 13 rivers in this country.

Personally I think there are too many rivers with this species and I often wonder how they have affected the natural populations of all the other fish.

I like barbel, I really do, but quite honestly they can do a great deal of harm if spread further.

Mike Wilkinson · Dec 3, 2006

I wouldn't have thought as many as 61, but for example, there is a tiny brook close to where i live that provides excellent winter grayling fishing, you could jump across it, it has water no deeper than 3ft and yet there are a few barbel in there to 8lb. If they're in there, they really could be any where.

paul williams 2 · Dec 3, 2006

Personally with all the crap and egotism thats generated around the poor barbel i think i'd sooner know the rivers that don't hold em!

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA) · Dec 3, 2006

One thing we discovered about barbel in the 60s was that they are very nomadic and well capable of penetrating every nook and cranny of a river system.

I can't think of a river system in my area that doesn't have them Brummie including the Idle, especially in the upper reaches.

paul williams 2 · Dec 3, 2006

I agree Ron.....they are very nomadic at times.

Infact i ain't convinced that the Wye barbel didn't enter of thier own accord via the shared estuary.....perhaps at time of low saline conditions, i read that coarse fish can on occasion go deep into areas that normally they couldn't tolerate.

I love barbel, i love carp but i don't want to see them dominating British angling.

Neil Maidment · Dec 3, 2006

Very true Ron. Back in the 70's we found barbel in just about all sidestreams and carriers of the middle Avon. Some of those carriers were little more than tiny brooks but some held good sized fish (I've submitted an article to FM recalling a few of my catches from such streams).

I certainly came to the conclusion that most of the stock I was aware of were very nomadic although they seemed to stick around in one area for quite a while before just "disappearing".

I don't think they need much outside "assistance" to populate a system!

And Paul, there's often very healthy stocks of coarse fish well down in Christchurch harbour (shared estuary for Avon and Stour).

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA) · Dec 3, 2006

I remember back in the 60s, we in the Northern Specimen Group did a study on the movement of barbel in the Yorkshire Ouse system. We found that some tagged fish moved as far as 14 miles in two weeks.

Our research also discovered that barbel were only originally indigenous to rivers flowing into the Humber and Thames estuaries.

This of course left out The Great Ouse.

I am not sure if barbel were ever native to the Great Ouse. Trent Otter never mentioned them there and certainly there were no records of them being caught there right up to the end of the 50s.

Then several anglers started hooking big fish in the Middle Ouse that smashed them up regularly. **** Walker came right out and stated that they were barbel. Of course many stated that Walker was talking rubbish.

Then two well known young anglers at the time, Ian Howcroft and Chuck Nunn caught a number of barbel from the Ouse and **** Walker joined them and caught a 9 pounder.

If barbel were not native to the Ouse, where did they come from?

It has remained a mystery ever since.

Graham Whatmore · Dec 3, 2006

Barbel were stocked in the Great Ouse in the 1950's, 1969 and again in the 1990's according to B. Church but he doesn't state whether they were there beforehand. Actually, reading this book there are very few rivers that havn't been stocked at one time or another.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA) · Dec 3, 2006

I am not sure when it was that Walker caught his 9 pounder. Probably the early 60s.

Come on Chevin, if you are reading this you would know.

I would very much like to know when barbel were put in the Ouse in the 50s. It might clear up the fact as to whether barbel actually belong in this river or not.

My guess is that they do not.

Mark Wintle · Dec 3, 2006

The list of 61 'rivers' falls apart somewhat when you consider that some listed are not rivers at all merely sidestreams i.e. offshoots of main rivers. eg the Potts stream is simply part of the Thames. That gets rid of 5 on the list otherwise every side stream that's ever produced a barbel claims a river record. Then where do you draw the line on tributaries? Major rivers like the Thames, Trent, Severn have many tributaries that have produced barbel which gives the impression that the barbel is in many more rivers than it actually is. The list does give a good idea of where introductions have been successful which is useful.

paul williams 2 · Dec 3, 2006

Why do lines have to be drawn Mark?

If a barbel is caught in the Warks Avon it is called a warks Avon fish, not a Severn fish.....if it is caught in Potts stream it is a Potts stream barbel?

All part and parcel of the unexpected?

Steve Handley · Dec 3, 2006

There's certainly a number of rivers that contain barbel. Here' s list of Barbel river records published by Brian Dowling on the bfw site.

http://www.barbel.co.uk/site/articles/riverrecords.htm

Don't know how accurate it is. I seem to remember a big double figure barbel caught in the Upper Witham a couple of years ago that's not shown on the list.

Graham Whatmore · Dec 3, 2006

I know what you mean Mark about some of the listed 'rivers' but a tributary as defined by the OED is a river that flows into a larger river or lake not the other way about, in other words it is a river in its own rights.

Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA) · Dec 3, 2006

I certainly would not call the Derbyshire Derwent or Dove a side stream They are all rivers in their own right as are the Yorkshire Swale, Ure and Wharfe, even though they are tributaries of the Yorkshire Ouse or Humber.

Mark Wintle · Dec 3, 2006

Paul,

The thing about Potts stream and some of the other so called rivers is that they are not tributaries at all. In Oxford (somewhere I know reasonably well) a sidestream called the Seacourt comes off the Thames just above Oxford it becomes variously, splitting and rejoining as it goes, the Botley stream, Bulstake stream, Hinksey stream and Potts stream (that's from memory, forgotten a couple of incarnations)- all of which probably hold barbel, rejoining the Thames in and below Oxford. So saying it is a river record when it is 500 yards of side stream is silly. On the Hants Avon, Neil mentioned the Sopley stream (1 mile long) which again is a side stream with barbel but no river record - it's simply part of the Hants Avon. Major tributaries (or rivers in their own right) is OK so a record for the Warks Avon is useful. Other sidestreams listed are part of the Lea, can't remember what St Patricks stream is but think a sidestream of Kennet or Loddon???

If the Potts stream is in why not the Seacourt which must have produced barbel - seen them not caught them?

Mark Wintle · Dec 3, 2006

A side stream is where a part of the river comes off the main river then rejoins it; often part of irrigation/navigation/milling operations. They are usually not very long - a mile or two sometimes a bit longer. Hampshire Avon has got loads of them whereas the Stour has very few - the Leaden Stour is just about it apart from mill islands.

Neneman Nick · Dec 3, 2006

how do you officially claim a river record??? who is the official,appointed keeper of river records??? is it worth the hassle trying to claim a river record???
the record for the nene,caught by duncan kay is wrong/out of date and has been beaten a few times.myself and yoggy know of and have seen photos of bigger fish caught at nene venues we fish etc....

Neil Maidment · Dec 3, 2006

Oh Mark! There I was doing my damnest not to name the sidestream and you go and blow it!!

It was only 30 odd years ago but a certain club didn't like publicity. Any members of "the circus" listening in, please note, all the fish I caught died many years ago of old age!

However, you are right. I think all the sidestreams we found barbel in were just that, sidestreams. Some very substantial but starting from and ending in the Avon.

I did have a couple of barbel from quite a way up that little river (that shall remain nameless!!) that flows into the Stour (not sure where that one rises from?).

paul williams 2 · Dec 3, 2006

Mark,

I get the gist, we have similar things in on the severn, eg "the mill avon" so yes i see your point.

Perhaps we should classify a water course that rejoins the "mother" river as part of her, but any water course that has it's own "source" as independant?

Any man made variation off the mother river would have been to carry goods and should be deemed a canal?

KIS?

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