Why such brute gear?

dezza · Sep 6, 2011

I was talking to the owner of a popular carp fishery in Lincolnshire this morning about the rules on his carp water, which is a big carp water, not a commercial. The carp in there are from mid doubles to maybe 30 lbs.

The lake is 5 acres with islands and a lot of features. Nowhere do you need to cast more than about 50 yards.

Yet the majority of anglers turn up with 3 to 3.5 lb rods, sometimes 13 feet long with thundering great big pit reels in-situ. The guy that catches most of the fish however uses a couple of eleven foot 1.5 lbs TC rods with 4000 sized Shimanos. He lands the fish in well under 10 minutes, whilst the brute stick guys seem to ponce and pussyfoot around for ages, fearing to put any decent pressure on the fish. The truth is that the 1.5 rod is capable of putting far more pressure on the fish than the brute sticks.

But somehow, as he told me, these guys will never learn.

I know I did put up a similar thread on this site some years ago, but since we have a lot of new members, it might be worth it the gauge how opinion has changed, if it has at all.

steph mckenzie · Sep 6, 2011

Not everyone can afford different sized rods to suit different sized venues.

Perhaps on some of their other venues they need to cast 100 yards + hence the heavier gauge rods and big pit reels.

Mind you the softer smaller rods will cast just as far on a bait boat

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) · Sep 6, 2011

Maybe some anglers only own '1 set' of rods for the fishing they do the most. Not every one has as much money as you Ron and able afford all the perfect tools for every angling situation.

Maybe some anglers are novices and are on a learning curve and don't know everything there is to about angling.

Maybe some anglers have a couple of carp fishing trips to France each year and choose to spend their money on the tackle required for the large carp there, which they are limited to use for the occasional outing on their local lake.

Or maybe they are just some sort of angling underclass, skull dragging chav angler far less skilled in their craft than any angler you would choose to rub shoulders with Ron.

sam vimes · Sep 6, 2011

It's a combination of factors. Fashion plays a big part, many carpers aren't considered, or don't consider themselves, serious unless they fit in with current fashions. The simple fact is that it's hard work to find "carp" rods of 2.5lb TC or less these days. They wouldn't be seen dead with barbel rods or Avons.

The other factor has been mentioned by the previous couple of posters. Many want one set of rods to cover every scenario. They'd simply rather be overgunned than under and no 1.5lb rod with 4000 sized reel I've encountered is capable of chucking big leads coupled with PVA bags any real distance. Heavy rods have very little to do with the size of the fish encountered and everything to do with what they can cast.

I bought heavy carp rods in the last year or two due to the water I am fishing being larger than anything I've previously taken on. I was still reluctant to go for 13' 3.5lb monsters though (and didn't) and I made sure that I retained my twenty year old Daiwa Powermesh rods for smaller waters and margin fishing. I still wouldn't use any of the 1.5lb TC rods that I own for carping though, except perhaps for floater fishing.

I suspect that the fella catching with light rods is simply a good angler. What size his reels are and what TC his rods are aren't the deciding factor in him doing well while the anglers that fish heavier gear don't.
Too many folks are obsessed by TC ratings and bashing those that do use rods on the heavier side. Take pokes at bad and/or lazy anglers by all means but don't make assumptions based on nothing more than a rod/reel choice.

dezza · Sep 6, 2011

Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC) said:
Or maybe they are just some sort of angling underclass, skull dragging chav angler far less skilled in their craft than any angler you would choose to rub shoulders with Ron.

---------- Post added at 09:39 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

sam vimes said:
It's a combination of factors. Fashion plays a big part, many carpers aren't considered, or don't consider themselves, serious unless they fit in with current fashions. The simple fact is that it's hard work to find "carp" rods of 2.5lb TC or less these days. They wouldn't be seen dead with barbel rods or Avons

What a load of bollacks! In other words it's not what you catch, it's what you look like that's the most important.

I use my barbel rods on this water, and my pike rods will chuck a fair sized spod.

Jeff Woodhouse · Sep 6, 2011

It's not happening in the carp world alone, it's in barbel fishing now - 2.75lbs TC rods to fish a stream?

I'm having trouble finding a decent brand 2 pc feeder rod suitable for chub up to 7lbs and using 6lbs line on a small-ish reel. Best I can find are barbel/quiver rods rated for lines up to 12lbs with 1¾ - 2lbs TCs or rods that have silly names aimed at the pasty catching fraternity. Not a criticism of those folks if that's what they want, but why can't I buy a similar soft quiver rod in a decent wrap with subtle graphics and a generalised name like - SUPER-DUPER CHUB CHOPPER

I blame it on sponsored anglers.

cg74 · Sep 6, 2011

"Why such brute gear?"

Too give you an excuse bitch, whine and come on FM to bemoan a 'carp anglers' methods.

Straight question; why don't you or your mate ask them and spend a few minutes explaining to them the error of there ways (if there were any)?

peter crabtree · Sep 6, 2011

I'm with Sam V. Fashion and having the gear means a lot to
some. If that's what they want let them use it.
Not bollacks at all.....

sam vimes · Sep 6, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
What a load of bollacks! In other words it's not what you catch, it's what you look like that's the most important.

To some extent, yes, whether you like it or not. Explain the number of folks using "big pit" reels when they never fish a water more than a few acres if it wasn't the case. They don't need the line capacity or casting ability of such a reel but they'll still get them. Just look around a full blown carp forum and you'll see.

Ron The Hat Clay said:
I use my barbel rods on this water, and my pike rods will chuck a fair sized spod.

Good for you. You, like me, are hardly a hardcore carper though.

Jeff Woodhouse said:
It's not happening in the carp world alone, it's in barbel fishing now - 2.75lbs TC rods to fish a stream?

Really? I own a pair of 2.75 barbel rods. They never see the light of day unless I'm on the Trent. Even then, I don't use them unless I have to. I've never seen anyone fishing with anything like this type of rod on smaller rivers.

Jeff Woodhouse said:
I'm having trouble finding a decent brand 2 pc feeder rod suitable for chub up to 7lbs and using 6lbs line on a small-ish reel. Best I can find are barbel/quiver rods rated for lines up to 12lbs with 1¾ - 2lbs TCs or rods that have silly names aimed at the pasty catching fraternity.

Fox Duo-Lite Avons or even Fox Duo-Lite Specialists on really small rivers do me just fine for such tactics.

Bob Hornegold · Sep 6, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
I was talking to the owner of a popular carp fishery in Lincolnshire this morning about the rules on his carp water, which is a big carp water, not a commercial. The carp in there are from mid doubles to maybe 30 lbs.

The lake is 5 acres with islands and a lot of features. Nowhere do you need to cast more than about 50 yards.

Yet the majority of anglers turn up with 3 to 3.5 lb rods, sometimes 13 feet long with thundering great big pit reels in-situ. The guy that catches most of the fish however uses a couple of eleven foot 1.5 lbs TC rods with 4000 sized Shimanos. He lands the fish in well under 10 minutes, whilst the brute stick guys seem to ponce and pussyfoot around for ages, fearing to put any decent pressure on the fish. The truth is that the 1.5 rod is capable of putting far more pressure on the fish than the brute sticks.

But somehow, as he told me, these guys will never learn.

I know I did put up a similar thread on this site some years ago, but since we have a lot of new members, it might be worth it the gauge how opinion has changed, if it has at all.

-----------

Ron,

Does it matter ?

The only bit that counts is the hooklink, the Hook and the way the bait is fished.

And of course the Fish Care of and Carp landed, which on most Carp Lakes is far higher than the average Commercial Puddle.

The power of the rod is of little importance, as long as fish is landed safely and without any undue stress !!

Bob

cg74 · Sep 6, 2011

Bob Hornegold said:
-----------

Ron,

Does it matter ?

The only bit that counts is the hooklink, the Hook and the way the bait is fished.

And of course the Fish Care of and Carp landed, which on most Carp Lakes is far higher than the average Commercial Puddle.

The power of the rod is of little importance, as long as fish is landed safely and without any undue stress !!

Bob

Thank you Bob, sense at last.

bigchub · Sep 6, 2011

Jeff Woodhouse said:
It's not happening in the carp world alone, it's in barbel fishing now - 2.75lbs TC rods to fish a stream?

I'm having trouble finding a decent brand 2 pc feeder rod suitable for chub up to 7lbs and using 6lbs line on a small-ish reel. Best I can find are barbel/quiver rods rated for lines up to 12lbs with 1¾ - 2lbs TCs or rods that have silly names aimed at the pasty catching fraternity. Not a criticism of those folks if that's what they want, but why can't I buy a similar soft quiver rod in a decent wrap with subtle graphics and a generalised name like - SUPER-DUPER CHUB CHOPPER

I blame it on sponsored anglers.

If your not too bothered about it being a 2 pc rod then can I recommend a second hand Shimano Twin Power Light/Medium Feeder or Medium/Heavy Feeder rod 3 pc rod. I've used the Light/Medium a fair bit recently and its an absolute joy to use. It's probably the best rod I've ever used for quiver tipping for chub, and I've used a lot of rods over the years, but always come back to this one for my quiver tipping. You should be able to pick one up fairly cheaply as they come up quite often on Ebay.
I team the rod with a Shimano Catana 4000RA or more frequently I use a Shimano 4010 GTM and to be honest its so light I don't even know I'm carrying it most of the time. Great for those roving sessions when you need to move around a lot.

dezza · Sep 6, 2011

Bob Hornegold said:
Ron,

Does it matter ?

The only bit that counts is the hooklink, the Hook and the way the bait is fished.

And of course the Fish Care of and Carp landed, which on most Carp Lakes is far higher than the average Commercial Puddle.

The power of the rod is of little importance, as long as fish is landed safely and without any undue stress !!

Bob

Bob,

According to the owner of this fishery (who by the way has been a hard core carp angler in his young days), ultra stiff carp rods, designed for distance casting, are not very friendly on carp and can cause mouth damage. This is not likely to happen to experienced anglers, but it's the young guys he worries about. They let the fish swim all over the place and many do not use the reels drag, preferring to backwind.

The result is that a lot of carp end up in the rushes. He had to free several carp from the rushes last week. All were hooked and had trailing leaders, the mainline line having broken.

cg74 · Sep 6, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
Bob,

According to the owner of this fishery (who by the way has been a hard core carp angler in his young days), ultra stiff carp rods, designed for distance casting, are not very friendly on carp and can cause mouth damage. This is not likely to happen to experienced anglers, but it's the young guys he worries about. They let the fish swim all over the place and many do not use the reels drag, preferring to backwind.

The result is that a lot of carp end up in the rushes. He had to free several carp from the rushes last week. All were hooked and had trailing leaders, the mainline line having broken.

That's just plain old bad angling and as a responsible fishery owner, also a long term angler, I'd have thought he should take it on himself to educate.
Same goes for you. As I've found it only takes a few minutes to steer people in the right direction, not much longer than you/I might spend talking an angler about how the water is fishing.....

sam vimes · Sep 6, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
Bob,

According to the owner of this fishery (who by the way has been a hard core carp angler in his young days), ultra stiff carp rods, designed for distance casting, are not very friendly on carp and can cause mouth damage. This is not likely to happen to experienced anglers, but it's the young guys he worries about. They let the fish swim all over the place and many do not use the reels drag, preferring to backwind.

The result is that a lot of carp end up in the rushes. He had to free several carp from the rushes last week. All were hooked and had trailing leaders, the mainline line having broken.

That's down to the individuals concerned and not the gear that they use. It's the fella holding onto the kit at fault not the kit itself. Do we blame a car for causing an accident?

cg74 · Sep 6, 2011

sam vimes said:
That's down to the individuals concerned and not the gear that they use. It's the fella holding onto the kit at fault not the kit itself. Do we blame a car for causing an accident?

"Yeah officer its bloody Ferrari's fault, cos when I press the accelerator to the floor in me Morris Minor, it only does 57mph, yet when I do it in the Ferrari, it does a ton eighty."

I'll get me coat.

mg:

rains · Sep 6, 2011

Ron The Hat Clay said:
I was talking to the owner of a popular carp fishery in Lincolnshire this morning about the rules on his carp water, which is a big carp water, not a commercial. The carp in there are from mid doubles to maybe 30 lbs.

The lake is 5 acres with islands and a lot of features. Nowhere do you need to cast more than about 50 yards.

Yet the majority of anglers turn up with 3 to 3.5 lb rods, sometimes 13 feet long with thundering great big pit reels in-situ. The guy that catches most of the fish however uses a couple of eleven foot 1.5 lbs TC rods with 4000 sized Shimanos. He lands the fish in well under 10 minutes, whilst the brute stick guys seem to ponce and pussyfoot around for ages, fearing to put any decent pressure on the fish. The truth is that the 1.5 rod is capable of putting far more pressure on the fish than the brute sticks.

But somehow, as he told me, these guys will never learn.

I know I did put up a similar thread on this site some years ago, but since we have a lot of new members, it might be worth it the gauge how opinion has changed, if it has at all.

Whats its really matter anyway am not a fan of having loads of rods out but the gear they use is upto them

uscarper · Sep 6, 2011

education is key here i think. alot of really good anglers keep to much knowledge to themselves, instead of just talking to the younger guys or any angler really that just doesn't know any different way of doing it and showing them a different way. any fisherman in my opinion whether they admit it or not is open to new ideas. a friend of mine uses 7wt fly rods with small shimano spinning reels and 6lb test stren for 80 percent of his fishing. he's caught alot of big fish on this set-up including a 30lb common and a 44lb flathead catfish. both were caught in snag free waters of course. he complains about everyone including me of using tackle that is to heavy, but yet he wont sit down and talk about gear, and rigs and things that allow him to do this and why. he has taught me a few things but ive known him 30 yrs. to others he'll say nothing, no info on anything. i think alot of guys are this way. and some see the majority of the sponsered guys doing it, so they think this is how it's done.

Jeff Woodhouse · Sep 6, 2011

sam vimes said:
I own a pair of 2.75 barbel rods. They never see the light of day unless I'm on the Trent. Even then, I don't use them unless I have to.

So why have them?

sam vimes said:
Fox Duo-Lite Avons or even Fox Duo-Lite Specialists

Looked at Fox and they're eithe rtoo heavy, ie: the 2lbs + jobs or too light, ½lbs tips. Just wonder why more manufacturers aren't making medium rods any longer, and just the two piece quiver thanks, no need for the Avon top. I could design them a really nice rod suitable for all anglers, specimen and match.

sam vimes · Sep 6, 2011

Jeff Woodhouse said:
So why have them?

For specific jobs on the Trent, or any other big river should I be daft enough to drive past the Trent!

Jeff Woodhouse said:
Looked at Fox and they're eithe rtoo heavy, ie: the 2lbs + jobs or too light, ½lbs tips. Just wonder why more manufacturers aren't making medium rods any longer, and just the two piece quiver thanks, no need for the Avon top. I could design them a really nice rod suitable for all anglers, specimen and match.

The Avon is supposed to be 1.0/0.75, the Specialist 0.5/0.5 depending on the tip used. However, having both I have my doubts that the published ratings are correct. I reckon that the Avon is closer to 1.25/1.00lb. The Specialist 0.75/0.5lb.

You could/can also get Fox Duo-Lite barbel rods rated at 1.5lb. However, as you correctly point out, they'll all have an Avon top as well as a quiver.

The Drennan Series 7 Specialist Avon/Quiver might also fit the bill but for that pesky Avon section.

Might be worth you looking at the commercial type feeder rods. The action of many of them wouldn't be my choice for river fishing but they would meet the no Avon top and two piece criteria.

Why such brute gear?

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