EA Prevent Potential Norfolk Fish Kill

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Phew! When I first saw this headline I thought Andy Youngs had been arrested for killing a barbel....

The drought is causing many problems throughout the country. The south east along with certain other parts of the country need rain - and more rain!

Jeff Woodhouse said:

Phew! When I first saw this headline I thought Andy Youngs had been arrested for killing a barbel....

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It's not a criminal act Jeff. You can't get arrested for it

You can if you walked onto my private land and killed the barbel in my pond.

And you can if it's over 20cms long! New bye-laws, read 'em up!

Jeff Woodhouse said:

And you can if it's over 20cms long! New bye-laws, read 'em up!

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Fine, I'll take 6 as livebait rather than 2 for the table. The bigger fish will die out through natural wastage soon enough anyway. Still confused why I'm allowed to kill brown trout and rainbow trout on the Wensum, but not barbel. Have you got a link to this bylaw please?

Kill all trout (and barbel)

Andy Youngs said:

Have you got a link to this bylaw please?

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Quote -

3 Fish Removal
(i) No person may remove by rod
and line any freshwater fish
listed in Schedule 1 from any
river, stream or drain, or from the
waters listed in either Schedule
2 or Schedule 3 except:
(a) 15 fish, other than grayling,
of not more than 20cm per
day.
(b) 1 pike of not more than 65cm
per day.
(c) 2 grayling of not less than
30cm and not more than
38cm per day.
The size of any fish shall be
ascertained by measuring from the
tip of the snout to the fork or cleft of
the tail.

Link here, but you download the bye-laws. It's on page 23

Jeff Woodhouse said:

Link here, but you download the bye-laws.[/URL] It's on page 23

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Thanks for clarifying that Jeff. I see I am still permitted to remove up to 15 barbel below 20cm in length for livebaiting. I'm a also allowed to keep any fish with the landowners / EA permission. Given that that the EA stocked the fish into the river in the first place, and given that the fish were introduced into the river without broad consultation, then I don't really see how the EA could reasonably with-hold such permission.

So I guess the hunt is now on for a sympathetic landowner on the Wensum. I reckon I might know one or two ....

I'm also unclear as to how these Bye-Laws are supposed to be enforced .. what are the penalties if you transgress the rules?

Andy Youngs said:

I'm also unclear as to how these Bye-Laws are supposed to be enforced .. what are the penalties if you transgress the rules?

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Up here mate the clubs enforce them! Two banks to a river, If you're seen killing fish over the size, all members are informed by their clubs to instantly report it to the EA.

EA Fisheries Officer(s) turns up, has the power of Constable, Carry's out a search of all the property you have including your car. Finds said fish arrests you for a criminal offence.
Legal dept of the EA assess the offences makes a decision on whether to put it before the Criminal Courts. The courts rightly dispense the punishment penalties.

If the Offender gets shirty, police get involved other criminal offences are added to your list of criminal offences committed. Nice!

And before anyone says that doesn't happen, I had 3 EEU offenders nicked this way 2 years ago, on a tip off from a member fishing the opposite bank.

The bad one said:

EA Fisheries Officer(s) turns up, has the power of Constable, Carry's out a search of all the property you have including your car. Finds said fish arrests you for a criminal offence.

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Yea OK, I agree, it's important to get landowners consent before you start killing fish (unless they're less than 20cm long). But up to this point, it's still only a civil offence, similar to canoeing through contested territory ...

The bad one said:

Legal dept of the EA assess the offences makes a decision on whether to put it before the Criminal Courts. The courts rightly dispense the punishment penalties.

If the Offender gets shirty, police get involved other criminal offences are added to your list of criminal offences committed. Nice!

And before anyone says that doesn't happen, I had 3 EEU offenders nicked this way 2 years ago, on a tip off from a member fishing the opposite bank.

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Well done. Doubt if you'll catch any indigenous poachers in this way though. They've been doing it for a lot longer than either you or these EEU offenders.

Andy Youngs said:

Yea OK, I agree, it's important to get landowners consent before you start killing fish (unless they're less than 20cm long). But up to this point, it's still only a civil offence, similar to canoeing through contested territory ...


Well done. Doubt if you'll catch any indigenous poachers in this way though. They've been doing it for a lot longer than either you or these EEU offenders.

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Wrong again! any offence committed under the EA bylaws is a criminal offence not a civil tort. And why an EA fisheries officer or an IPC officer for that matter has the "Power of Constable." They are warranted with the same power as a police officer to act in the strictly defined area of land, air and water.

You really should read my posts more closely

If the Offender gets shirty, police get involved "other criminal offences are added to your list of criminal offences committed."

All EA officers have a direct emergency link to the police in case of getting into trouble when enforcing Bylaws.
Once saw one guy threatening an EA officer the other side of a reservoir I was fishing, within 5 minutes of the threat to him happening, the guy was arrested and carted off by 3 police officers. And they left his tackle on the bank when they nicked him. It was still there when we left as it was going dark.

We catch those as well up here "indigenous one" but eating coarse fish isn't at all prevalent in this region amongst the indigenous population, its the EEU that take them to eat. It's more nicking fish to stock other waters the fish are usually taken for by indigenous peoples.

The bad one said:

Wrong again! any offence committed under the EA bylaws is a criminal offence not a civil tort. And why an EA fisheries officer or an IPC officer for that matter has the "Power of Constable." They are warranted with the same power as a police officer to act in the strictly defined area of land, air and water.

You really should read my posts more closely

If the Offender gets shirty, police get involved "other criminal offences are added to your list of criminal offences committed."

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I haven't committed any criminal offences. If I had then no doubt I would have been arrested by now.

The bad one said:

All EA officers have a direct emergency link to the police in case of getting into trouble when enforcing Bylaws.

Once saw one guy threatening an EA officer the other side of a reservoir I was fishing, within 5 minutes of the threat to him happening, the guy was arrested and carted off by 3 police officers. And they left his tackle on the bank when they nicked him. It was still there when we left as it was going dark.

We catch those as well up here "indigenous one" but eating coarse fish isn't at all prevalent in this region amongst the indigenous population, its the EEU that take them to eat. It's more nicking fish to stock other waters the fish are usually taken for by indigenous peoples.

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Yeah? well down here in Norfolk poaching is an art form which has been refined in over 300 years of hard experience. We know how to do it properly. If you are unfortunate enough to own a stretch of river which is artificially stocked with unwanted fish, then you might find that they simply disappear in a puff of smoke. And nobody will ever be able to figure out how it was done. If you don't believe me, then I suggest you report me to the police. You do have my address after all.

So do other people now closer to your area!

Good. Lets be having you ...

Andy Youngs said:

Thanks for clarifying that Jeff. I see I am still permitted to remove up to 15 barbel below 20cm in length for livebaiting. I'm a also allowed to keep any fish with the landowners / EA permission. Given that that the EA stocked the fish into the river in the first place, and given that the fish were introduced into the river without broad consultation, then I don't really see how the EA could reasonably with-hold such permission.

So I guess the hunt is now on for a sympathetic landowner on the Wensum. I reckon I might know one or two ....

I'm also unclear as to how these Bye-Laws are supposed to be enforced .. what are the penalties if you transgress the rules?

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Foolish boy, if you read the byelaw's about removal with the land/riparian owners permission correctly, you'll see it applies to still waters only. River fish are 'wild creatures' and belong to no one, not even wealthy riparian/land owners.
I think you will find that you will have to get the fishery or whatever owners permission to remove ANY size of fish from a stillwater, depending upon the rules for that water. On most ALL fish have to be returned, even barbel.

Also you might like to read THIS written by Mark Leathwood, himself ex Old Bill. Probably wise to read BEFORE your nicked!

And if you had access to Fish Legal information and documents you would receive qualified legal advice, but your probably also anti AT so you wont.

"what are the penalties if you transgress the rules?"

A term of imprisonment or a fine of up to £5000 I believe, but you can always apply for it under a FOI request

john m h said:

Foolish boy, if you read the byelaw's about removal with the land/riparian owners permission correctly, you'll see it applies to still waters only. River fish are 'wild creatures' and belong to no one, not even wealthy riparian/land owners.
I think you will find that you will have to get the fishery or whatever owners permission to remove ANY size of fish from a stillwater, depending upon the rules for that water. On most ALL fish have to be returned, even barbel.

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Not sure where you get that from. The Bye-Law on fish removal is quite explicit in stating that it is not applicable when permission has been given in writing from the EA and the landowner to remove fish. It makes no reference to 'stillwaters only'. So, if I can find a landowner on the Wensum who objects to the barbel stocking policy (and there are quite a few, believe me), then I can write to the EA on his behalf and request permission to remove the barbel on environmental grounds. And if the EA refuse, then I would be quite happy to argue that one out in front of a Magistrate.

john m h said:

And if you had access to Fish Legal information and documents you would receive qualified legal advice, but your probably also anti AT so you wont.

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Proper legal advice from Fish Legal? You gotta be joking. That lot have demonstrated the kind of typically narrow legal interpretations for which lawyers are famous. Telling their clients what they want to hear so they can justify their own existence. More likely than not, they'll end up landing the Angling Trust in court and the only winners will be .... you guessed it .... lawyers.

Just in case there's any doubt, I'm spitting directly at them. Fish Legal should put up or shut up. Either they issue an Injunction against me to stop me paddling the Wensum or they should shut up and stop wasting everyone's time and money. If I was Mark Lloyd, I'd sack the lot of them for gross incompetence. But then the Angling Trust itself has been grossly incompetent for accepting the advice in the first place.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

john m h said:

Also you might like to read THIS written by Mark Leathwood, himself ex Old Bill. Probably wise to read BEFORE your nicked!

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That's a very interesting article. I applaud what Mark Leathwood is doing. Poaching is wrong, and I would never condone it. It just happens from time to time, same as illegal fish introductions and verbal assault on the riverbank.

Which is why the efforts of concientious, public spirited individuals like Mark are so greatly appreciated.